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Post Your Amusements!

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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Darielle » Mon May 20, 2013 3:21 pm

So what is the difference?


10H needs to be considered "close enough" to "equal" - which doesn't translate necessary to "must have exact same fight mechanics", but it does mean that difficulty and reward need to be right alongside 25-mans

An easy mode would have 10N players who feel Normal is too hard drop down into it. 10H would stay "equal", and its effect would be that you have an impact from potential 10N guilds being destroyed by the Normal/Easy schism, which wouldn't affect 10H TOO badly because it's already a safety net where 25H guilds drop into.

By bumping all 10-mans including 10H downward, you push a 10H audience into 25H for "real raiding", AND you have the impact from potential 10H guilds being destroyed, AND you've removed 10H's legitimacy as an equal mode to 25H meaning it's no longer an attractive safety net to drop down from 25H, which is a move that draws people away from the game when their 25H guild inevitably stumbles.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 3:33 pm

Darielle wrote:
So what is the difference?


10H needs to be considered "close enough" to "equal" - which doesn't translate necessary to "must have exact same fight mechanics", but it does mean that difficulty and reward need to be right alongside 25-mans

An easy mode would have 10N players who feel Normal is too hard drop down into it. 10H would stay "equal", and its effect would be that you have an impact from potential 10N guilds being destroyed by the Normal/Easy schism, which wouldn't affect 10H TOO badly because it's already a safety net where 25H guilds drop into.

By bumping all 10-mans including 10H downward, you push a 10H audience into 25H for "real raiding", AND you have the impact from potential 10H guilds being destroyed, AND you've removed 10H's legitimacy as an equal mode to 25H meaning it's no longer an attractive safety net to drop down from 25H, which is a move that draws people away from the game when their 25H guild inevitably stumbles.


But... the top guilds, for the longest time, considered 10H not to be real raiding... it wasn't until Ensidia and the others could not sustain the numbers for 25H and decided to go to 10H when they started to parrot about 10H being equally valid as a 25H as progress. If I recall correctly, even Treck said as much.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 3:48 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xogheZdAO18

A blacksmith recreates the Buster Sword

Well... he machined it in this case... for the most part

But he did forge the He-Man sword.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Darielle » Mon May 20, 2013 5:13 pm

But... the top guilds, for the longest time, considered 10H not to be real raiding... it wasn't until Ensidia and the others could not sustain the numbers for 25H and decided to go to 10H when they started to parrot about 10H being equally valid as a 25H as progress. If I recall correctly, even Treck said as much.


From the start of Cataclysm, 10H has been able to establish itself just fine as "real raiding". While it was somewhat easier when they overcompensated for T11's mistakes when it came to things like Rag, or DPS thresholds, particularly in T11 and following on from T14 it was the development of the new scene. You have guilds like Modest who started from then, who are still going strong etc.

Whether Ensidia, Paragon or the other ones considered 10H to not be real raiding isn't really relevant. It made them feel more special while they were a 25-man to be so much more awesome and it lets them feel more special now about being 10-man to be equally valid, no one else really cares. Even while being "equal", 10H cannot actually be compared to 25H anyway, since they're different modes with different fights and different challenges as a result. That's not relevant to "equally valid".
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Era » Tue May 21, 2013 2:01 am

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xogheZdAO18

A blacksmith recreates the Buster Sword

Well... he machined it in this case... for the most part

But he did forge the He-Man sword.


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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby bldavis » Tue May 21, 2013 6:04 am

i love the look of his stuff...but he machines most of it
call me old fashioned but i love watching a sword take shape from the making of the steel through the forging process and to the final product.
i get things like the buster sword would be insane to try to forge but still
the jaime lannister sword is a prime example of what i mean. he just took stock steel and machined it into a weapon..he didnt forge anything but the pommel

i love what he did with gimli's bearded axe..that is the kind of stuff i love to watch and would love to learn how to do someday.
then again i was a blacksmith apprentice back when my family did oregon trail living history reenactment (between mountain men and civil war, 1840's and 50's time period)
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue May 21, 2013 6:07 am

bldavis wrote:i love the look of his stuff...but he machines most of it
call me old fashioned but i love watching a sword take shape from the making of the steel through the forging process and to the final product.
i get things like the buster sword would be insane to try to forge but still
the jaime lannister sword is a prime example of what i mean. he just took stock steel and machined it into a weapon..he didnt forge anything but the pommel

i love what he did with gimli's bearded axe..that is the kind of stuff i love to watch and would love to learn how to do someday.
then again i was a blacksmith apprentice back when my family did oregon trail living history reenactment (between mountain men and civil war, 1840's and 50's time period)


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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Tue May 21, 2013 6:18 am

Darielle wrote:That is precisely why 10H should not be made easier than 25H. Going back to "easier 10-mans" is not good for the 10H scene - it's the definition of when 25H was "the mode that mattered", and 10H was so much easier that many mechanics and fights were just trivialised.

Having something like:
10E
10N-25N
10H-25H
would actually make sense.


This model is what I would propose as well. Moving the difficulty level of a normal/heroic mode based on size alone seems to me to be a terrible idea (imagine a possibly louder outcry if they decided to do this with 25 instead), as Darielle explains. What LFR has shown, however, is that it *is not* sufficient for the primarily social raiding experience (either because of lack of social aspect or because the challenge is not sufficient in an organized group), since it is to raiding what wrath/cata LFD heroics were to guild runs of the same. But for the sake of ease of forming a group, making it a smaller group (10 or maybe even 15, and allowing cross-realm grouping) would allow for a bit of both worlds.

If an 'LFR+' level was introduced, it seems that while it would introduce another level to tune (moving difficulties based on size would have kept the number the same), it may actually fill the social raiding niche better than LFR which seems to have taken the place of the old 5-man heroics. Almost more akin to the small-group niche of challenge modes but with a place in gear progression. I think one potential issue is deciding how to treat its lockout. I'd settle for a boss-level lockout shared with normal & heroic modes (so you could drop down a level on a boss, but couldn't farm all difficulties *and* LFR), and loot that was say LFR-level but with 1/2 type upgrade (hopefully placing it between the LFR and normal mode loot). The smaller size would make it easier to form groups by simply requiring fewer people than a premade LFR run. The need for a premade would allow for a social aspect, coordination, teaching/learning (you know, the fun stuff in raiding) and help with getting pugs moving again on struggling servers. Cross-realm would allow for even easier group forming (though may fight some of the pugging on servers, but I think that's a price I'm willing to pay), and since the loot would ideally only be slightly better than LFR but shared a lockout you could control its place in progression.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Tue May 21, 2013 6:25 am

bldavis wrote:i love the look of his stuff...but he machines most of it
call me old fashioned but i love watching a sword take shape from the making of the steel through the forging process and to the final product.
i get things like the buster sword would be insane to try to forge but still
the jaime lannister sword is a prime example of what i mean. he just took stock steel and machined it into a weapon..he didnt forge anything but the pommel

i love what he did with gimli's bearded axe..that is the kind of stuff i love to watch and would love to learn how to do someday.
then again i was a blacksmith apprentice back when my family did oregon trail living history reenactment (between mountain men and civil war, 1840's and 50's time period)


For a lot of modern reproductions and so forth for retail sale, many makers do machining simply due to cost. That said, some of them are still amazing.

I have a sword and dagger from these guys, and the things are awesome. But the pommel and cross are the only forged (cast, really) bits, while the blade was done mainly with 'stock removal' (machining). But they do a mix depending on the project. I think their poleax heads are cast, for example.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue May 21, 2013 6:53 am

People always talk about making 25 man more rewarding to make up for the logistics of managing a bigger group. How come no one ever suggests that 25 man be the easier mode to compensate for the difficulty getting and keeping 25 competent raiders?

When you only have to put together a 10 man group, you can afford to be more selective than when you need to keep 2.5 times that, so can face up to more difficult challenges.

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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Sagara » Tue May 21, 2013 6:55 am

Actually... That's brilliant!
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Shoju » Tue May 21, 2013 7:51 am

Girl I went to school with is trying to be a model/actress. Well, as she has aged, her photo shoots that she is uploading to her facebook account have become more risque. As in "SEE! I'LL GET NAKED IF IT MEANS YOU'LL GIVE ME A JOB!" type of stuff. It smacks of desperation. And I hate to say anything, because I'll either come off as a shallow asshole, or a creepy jerk.

But, she's getting really close to that "model" in the "adult" industry standard.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Flex » Tue May 21, 2013 9:51 am

KysenMurrin wrote:People always talk about making 25 man more rewarding to make up for the logistics of managing a bigger group. How come no one ever suggests that 25 man be the easier mode to compensate for the difficulty getting and keeping 25 competent raiders?

When you only have to put together a 10 man group, you can afford to be more selective than when you need to keep 2.5 times that, so can face up to more difficult challenges.

[Insert trollface.jpg]


If you go back to what GC stated that was pretty close to what he said the current design trends to, 25 man normals can carry a bit more than 10 normals can, outside of how things fall due to most 25s being heroic focused at the moment.

Darielle wrote:Having something like:
10E
10N-25N
10H-25H
would actually make sense.


This is close to how I'd envision it. 10E could even, say, be pre-upgraded LFR gear or we could do the 4 upgrade system where 10E is 0/4 and N is 2/4.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby halabar » Tue May 21, 2013 11:26 am

bldavis wrote:i love the look of his stuff...but he machines most of it
call me old fashioned but i love watching a sword take shape from the making of the steel through the forging process and to the final product.
i get things like the buster sword would be insane to try to forge but still
the jaime lannister sword is a prime example of what i mean. he just took stock steel and machined it into a weapon..he didnt forge anything but the pommel

i love what he did with gimli's bearded axe..that is the kind of stuff i love to watch and would love to learn how to do someday.
then again i was a blacksmith apprentice back when my family did oregon trail living history reenactment (between mountain men and civil war, 1840's and 50's time period)


I think they should stick to weapons they can actually lift and swing.. lol
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby halabar » Tue May 21, 2013 11:31 am

Flex wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:People always talk about making 25 man more rewarding to make up for the logistics of managing a bigger group. How come no one ever suggests that 25 man be the easier mode to compensate for the difficulty getting and keeping 25 competent raiders?

When you only have to put together a 10 man group, you can afford to be more selective than when you need to keep 2.5 times that, so can face up to more difficult challenges.

[Insert trollface.jpg]


If you go back to what GC stated that was pretty close to what he said the current design trends to, 25 man normals can carry a bit more than 10 normals can, outside of how things fall due to most 25s being heroic focused at the moment.

Darielle wrote:Having something like:
10E
10N-25N
10H-25H
would actually make sense.


This is close to how I'd envision it. 10E could even, say, be pre-upgraded LFR gear or we could do the 4 upgrade system where 10E is 0/4 and N is 2/4.



The problem with 10E is that you still don't have a lot of room for carrying someone.

I'll go back to my suggestion, a 15-man team. You could take the 10-man difficulty, and simply allow 5 more bodies. Give it a 516 ilvl, and you're done. Premade groups only, CRZ allowed.

This could even be a "training" level to show people the actual mechanics.

It would also be a test for a future of one raid team size.
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