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Post Your Amusements!

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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 10:01 am

What flex said is pretty much what i was saying, 'cept for the number of upgrades. Although i was thinking of having 10h being somewhat easier just to keep it staggered.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby halabar » Mon May 20, 2013 10:06 am

Klaudandus wrote:What flex said is pretty much what i was saying, 'cept for the number of upgrades. Although i was thinking of having 10h being somewhat easier just to keep it staggered.


All that to "save" 25 man raiding, and separate from the "vast wasteland" of LFR?

I really don't want to go back to ICC and having to do 3 tiers (or more) of the same raid each week... (let's see... Tuesday is LFR. Wednesday is guild 25, Thursday is guild 10-man, Friday is pugged H mode... errkk.)
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Mon May 20, 2013 10:12 am

Flex wrote:
benebarba wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:10h would be between 25n and 25h, like in icc


This is getting well outside amusement, but follow for a sec: If you're going to essentially say that 10s are for the new and sub-par performing raiders... why on earth would you develop a heroic mode, especially if it ends up skipping a difficulty level?


Here's how I'd do it if they want to bring back a social raiding tier.
10N: 0/2 upgrades
25N: 2/2 upgrades
10H & 25H: +13 ilvl from 10N 0/2 upgrades

Heroic modes tuned to be similar difficulty with sane rewards. 10N can be as powerful as 25N but they'd have to spend more to reach that power level. Increase cost of upgrading.

Ultimately I'd rather have a LFR style group queue for social raiding.


I'm with ya here (I'd go 1/2 upgrade though, unless the difficulty difference was quite large, and give the same amount of VP, gold, etc. and a shared 10/25 lockout) - at some point I actually wonder if it's worth the effort to introduce a small 'social' raiding level based on size alone, while simultaneously expecting it to be premade/guild runs. The work to hit the magic difficulty level to keep it fun and challenging while not making it a small LFR seems like a lot of work.

Regarding giving 10-mans that are lower tuned un-upgraded loot (with the same potential as 25s), I don't see that as punishment so much as I see that as encouragement to do the next thing up (if it is sufficient is questionable). VP can be gotten many ways now, so along side rep vendors and even LFR drops, I feel like you'd have plenty of opportunities to get good loot regardless of if you'd done 10s or 25s.

halabar wrote:If 25-man is dying, let it die... (and yes, my current raid team is 25-man)


This was pretty much my reaction to the comments. There seems to be a whole lot of thought going into keeping 25s alive, and some of it seems really stretching the bounds of logic. Did they try to do this with 40s too?
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Flex » Mon May 20, 2013 10:13 am

halabar wrote:All that to "save" 25 man raiding, and separate from the "vast wasteland" of LFR?


No, none of this is to save 25 man raiding, read the discussion. This is to save social raiding, you know the 9 carrying the 1 while killing bosses.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Mon May 20, 2013 10:21 am

Flex wrote:
halabar wrote:All that to "save" 25 man raiding, and separate from the "vast wasteland" of LFR?


No, none of this is to save 25 man raiding, read the discussion. This is to save social raiding, you know the 9 carrying the 1 while killing bosses.


Well, because of the fact that they are discussing changing 25s to make the loot more attractive (I assume the difficulty wouldn't go up from how it's balanced now), I don't think it's about *not* saving them either.


rather than making *all* 10-mans lower difficulty, I'd rather see a premade-only 10-man LFR queue, that is basically just a smaller version of LFR, dropping the same loot, or perhaps 1/2 upgraded LFR loot and having a reasonably bump up in difficulty. Certainly would have its share of problems, but seems like that would be the way to introduce a 'real' introductory raiding experience, since LFR seems to pretty much be a turn-off.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby halabar » Mon May 20, 2013 12:01 pm

Flex wrote:
halabar wrote:All that to "save" 25 man raiding, and separate from the "vast wasteland" of LFR?


No, none of this is to save 25 man raiding, read the discussion. This is to save social raiding, you know the 9 carrying the 1 while killing bosses.


Well, the problem with that is it's usually the 7 carrying the 3, and you just don't have the flexibility in 10-mans to do that.

But if you lower the level of 10-man gear, or boost 25-man gear, they you are going to just punish those who can't get the group to do 25-man raiding.

Do you really want to farm twice as much valor to upgrade gear just because your guild only does 10-man raiding?

How about this instead, thinking along the lines of heroic scenarios...

LFR+ 15-man raiding, Premade only. Drops ilvl 516 gear. Difficultly level of 10-man but you can bring 5 more bodies. Option of switching current raid lockout to this from either 10N or 25N. (Can't finish the raid this week? Grab a few more on the weekend and finish clearing it. Want to show some new people the fights? bring them along).
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Mon May 20, 2013 12:10 pm

though really, now that I think about it, if it's a premade-only thing... it should probably a drop-down selectable difficulty option or something, since the only reason to queue would be to not have to fly to the instance portal... but I suppose it would also be good if it allowed cross-realm groups.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Flex » Mon May 20, 2013 12:20 pm

halabar wrote:Well, the problem with that is it's usually the 7 carrying the 3, and you just don't have the flexibility in 10-mans to do that.


That was what GC was bringing up. By making 10s and 25s drop the same on normal they made 10s much less forgiving than 25s for the carrying aspect. Also compared to 10s the majority of 25s are focused on Heroic progression which means the social 25 isn't much of a thing currently.

halabar wrote:But if you lower the level of 10-man gear, or boost 25-man gear, they you are going to just punish those who can't get the group to do 25-man raiding.

Do you really want to farm twice as much valor to upgrade gear just because your guild only does 10-man raiding?


There's no punishment in anything I proposed, clearing content gives you a bunch of VP and you'll eventually run out of things to spend it on. End result can be the same.

benebarba wrote:though really, now that I think about it, if it's a premade-only thing... it should probably a drop-down selectable difficulty option or something, since the only reason to queue would be to not have to fly to the instance portal... but I suppose it would also be good if it allowed cross-realm groups.


I try to use "LFR" in quotes to get across the difficulty level I'm proposing.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Mon May 20, 2013 12:52 pm

Flex wrote:That was what GC was bringing up. By making 10s and 25s drop the same on normal they made 10s much less forgiving than 25s for the carrying aspect. Also compared to 10s the majority of 25s are focused on Heroic progression which means the social 25 isn't much of a thing currently.


On this idea that 25 man guilds are by and large heroic progression, using the 25-N as a speed bump... why bother with 25 normal at all then (apart from 'well, that's how we've done it for 3 expansions')? I mean, dropping 25N because of the number of 25H guilds seems to make as much sense as dropping the current 10N into something else because of folks wanting something like LFR but for 10 people who know each other.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby halabar » Mon May 20, 2013 12:59 pm

You are still punishing the 10-man raiding. If I have to grind out more valor to upgrade my gear, that's punishment, and with upgrades factor in, you'd never be done until late in the expac. Consider how many people here bitch about dailies being required to get valor now. Just wait if you make this change.

If you made these changes, especially mid-expansion, you would cause a lot of upheaval. Suddenly 25 is the "real" raiding again, and all the better players will want to be hopping to 25s.

In my guild it would be a real mess. There are 2 25-man teams, and about 15 10-man teams that I know of. Make those changes, and suddenly 2-3 more new 25 mans start up, draining quite a few of the best players from those 10-man teams.

And in guilds that only have one 10-man team, you are going to loose people as they want to hop to the real raiding, and oops, there goes the guild.

I like the LFR+ concept a lot better. It doesn't rock the existing 10/25 structure at all, and provides a way to "carry" some people. And it might provide an alternate raiding path outside of current 10/25.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby halabar » Mon May 20, 2013 1:05 pm

benebarba wrote:
Flex wrote:That was what GC was bringing up. By making 10s and 25s drop the same on normal they made 10s much less forgiving than 25s for the carrying aspect. Also compared to 10s the majority of 25s are focused on Heroic progression which means the social 25 isn't much of a thing currently.


On this idea that 25 man guilds are by and large heroic progression, using the 25-N as a speed bump... why bother with 25 normal at all then (apart from 'well, that's how we've done it for 3 expansions')? I mean, dropping 25N because of the number of 25H guilds seems to make as much sense as dropping the current 10N into something else because of folks wanting something like LFR but for 10 people who know each other.


Being that my current raid team is a "social" 25-man, loosing that would make me quite annoyed...

Changing 10 is problematic as well, especially if you are lowering the difficulty level. It needs to be something inbetween LFR and the current 10/25.

Look at what they are doing with heroic scenarios. I think that's working upward with the right approach. Just expand that thinking to moving up from LFR.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Darielle » Mon May 20, 2013 2:34 pm

What flex said is pretty much what i was saying, 'cept for the number of upgrades. Although i was thinking of having 10h being somewhat easier just to keep it staggered.


You can't make 10H easier. 10H needs to be considered "close enough" to "equal" - which doesn't translate necessary to "must have exact same fight mechanics", but it does mean that difficulty and reward need to be right alongside 25-mans.

If I have to grind out more valor to upgrade my gear, that's punishment, and with upgrades factor in, you'd never be done until late in the expac.


Uh, that's not "punishment", and you are intended to grind Valor until late in the expansion on either mode. THe model that they're proposing wouldn't change that for 25-mans either, it's just that 10-mans would be tuned around 0/4, 25-mans start off tuned around 2/4. Neither would "finish" the upgrade process, unless being in a guild that gets Heroic Sha on farm for 4 months so that everyone ends up with best in slots - aka pretty much no one.

I like the LFR+ concept a lot better. It doesn't rock the existing 10/25 structure at all, and provides a way to "carry" some people. And it might provide an alternate raiding path outside of current 10/25.


LFR has already been rocking the existing 10/25 structure, and it doesn't even provide enough of the experience. That's why they're looking to change it. LFR winds up lacking on the social structure, teamwork, and all other aspects that even a group that isn't necessarily GOOD at enjoys.

On this idea that 25 man guilds are by and large heroic progression, using the 25-N as a speed bump... why bother with 25 normal at all then (apart from 'well, that's how we've done it for 3 expansions')? I mean, dropping 25N because of the number of 25H guilds seems to make as much sense as dropping the current 10N into something else because of folks wanting something like LFR but for 10 people who know each other.


You can't really "drop" Normal. It's a little more than "that's how we've done it for 3 expansions". 25N (was)/(is) also a core base of recruitment for 25H.

Look at what they are doing with heroic scenarios. I think that's working upward with the right approach. Just expand that thinking to moving up from LFR.


?
Heroic Scenarios are just the same easy scenarios tuned slightly ahead of the release ones so that people in 502's feel like they're doing something. They don't actually fit into the difficulty structure.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 2:54 pm

Darielle wrote:
What flex said is pretty much what i was saying, 'cept for the number of upgrades. Although i was thinking of having 10h being somewhat easier just to keep it staggered.


You can't make 10H easier. 10H needs to be considered "close enough" to "equal" - which doesn't translate necessary to "must have exact same fight mechanics", but it does mean that difficulty and reward need to be right alongside 25-mans.


Well, my idea was
-10N
-25N
-10H
-25H

Which is why I said make 10H easier vis a vis 25H. I mean, wasn't ICC 10H tuned easier than 25H?
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Darielle » Mon May 20, 2013 3:03 pm

Well, my idea was
-10N
-25N
-10H
-25H

Which is why I said make 10H easier vis a vis 25H. I mean, wasn't ICC 10H tuned easier than 25H?


That is precisely why 10H should not be made easier than 25H. Going back to "easier 10-mans" is not good for the 10H scene - it's the definition of when 25H was "the mode that mattered", and 10H was so much easier that many mechanics and fights were just trivialised.

Having something like:
10E
10N-25N
10H-25H
would actually make sense.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 3:14 pm

Darielle wrote:
Well, my idea was
-10N
-25N
-10H
-25H

Which is why I said make 10H easier vis a vis 25H. I mean, wasn't ICC 10H tuned easier than 25H?


That is precisely why 10H should not be made easier than 25H. Going back to "easier 10-mans" is not good for the 10H scene - it's the definition of when 25H was "the mode that mattered", and 10H was so much easier that many mechanics and fights were just trivialised.

Having something like:
10E
10N-25N
10H-25H
would actually make sense.


So what is the difference?
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