Post Your Amusements!

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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Mon May 20, 2013 7:56 am

From a recent wowinsider interview with GC (bold mine):

WI: Do you think 25 man raiding has stabilized at all, or is it still in decline? Are you guys working on anything to address that?

GC: I don't know -- overall, I haven't looked at the numbers in awhile -- my hunch would be that it's still in decline honestly, because there aren't a lot of -- it's just entropy, that 25 man guilds collapse into 10 man guilds, and it's really hard for a 10 man guild to decide "Hey, let's recruit a bunch and become 25!" We do like 25 raiding, it offers some -- what we think are cool advantages over 10's. I think personally, 25 feels more epic, you have a whole army of characters assaulting an enemy base. It's a great opportunity to bring in new players to raiding, or you know, your friend who maybe isn't super skilled but wants to see the content.

When you have 10 players, every single slot is pretty precious. You can do things in 25's like kill a bunch of players and they can still succeed, where if you kill five players in a 10, it's probably a wipe. And just what I said before, that 25 has somewhere to go -- if it starts to fall apart, the guild can reorganize itself as a 10, or often a 25 will recruit again to fill the ranks back up, whereas all the time we see 10 player guilds that start to fall apart just fall apart. It's hard for them to back-fill their ranks and keep the guild going. We're worried that the path from 10 is 10 to exit, rather than 10 to a different guild to raid.


Now, I really am not on any side of the 10/25 argument (I wouldn't call it debate), but did he actually just say that? In an interview? 0.o

That said, I hadn't thought about his comment regarding how 25s tended to either downsize or fill up, but 10s seem to just fold.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Flex » Mon May 20, 2013 8:17 am

In 25s you can potentially carry a person a bit easier than in a 10. However how things shake out doesn't make that a reality as most 25 man raids are for heroic raiding where normal modes are a simple gating system for what they really want to do while most 10s aren't for heroic raiding.

There's been lots of discussion going on on his Twitter about social raiding and raiders and where that belong. He's even mentioned that the WotLK model may be better in that regard with 10s being designed easier and dropping weaker gear.

Ultimately it is a "two is not enough" difficulty issue, a 10 man "LFR" requiring a full group to queue for might fix that concern.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Flex » Mon May 20, 2013 8:24 am

Yahoo buying Tumblr for 1.1 billion. That's a penny a GIF!
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 8:45 am

Flex wrote:In 25s you can potentially carry a person a bit easier than in a 10. However how things shake out doesn't make that a reality as most 25 man raids are for heroic raiding where normal modes are a simple gating system for what they really want to do while most 10s aren't for heroic raiding.

There's been lots of discussion going on on his Twitter about social raiding and raiders and where that belong. He's even mentioned that the WotLK model may be better in that regard with 10s being designed easier and dropping weaker gear.

Ultimately it is a "two is not enough" difficulty issue, a 10 man "LFR" requiring a full group to queue for might fix that concern.


Isnt that what they did in asia? 25man drops better gear?
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Flex » Mon May 20, 2013 8:48 am

Klaudandus wrote:Isnt that what they did in asia? 25man drops better gear?


2/4 upgraded gear. They also reset twice weekly I think.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 8:56 am

Flex wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Isnt that what they did in asia? 25man drops better gear?


2/4 upgraded gear. They also reset twice weekly I think.


That could be a solution. 10man drops gear with 0/4 upgrades but is a bit easier to clear, 25man drops the 2/4 upgraded gear. While the initial gear in 25man is better, gear from both raids can be equally as powerful in the end, it just takes longer to do on 10man.

You can also change the color of the 25man gear to make it unique.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Honourless » Mon May 20, 2013 9:06 am

In no way linked to preceding posts/discussion, but definitely amusement as per original thread title, some vids from our guild archives:

http://warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=136253
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Mon May 20, 2013 9:23 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Flex wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Isnt that what they did in asia? 25man drops better gear?


2/4 upgraded gear. They also reset twice weekly I think.


That could be a solution. 10man drops gear with 0/4 upgrades but is a bit easier to clear, 25man drops the 2/4 upgraded gear. While the initial gear in 25man is better, gear from both raids can be equally as powerful in the end, it just takes longer to do on 10man.

You can also change the color of the 25man gear to make it unique.


I more wonder if it will be too late, and if they'll actually be able to make what would be up to 2 more tiers of difficulty (would 10-heroic go away, or would it be harder than 25-N? what about that gear? etc.). History shows that over/undershooting is pretty common in progressive content.

We have LFR for the niche of the old 5-man heroics (partially picked up by heroic scenarios as well, possibly) - namely loot & points with a bit of story on the side. This sort of change means that 10-normals would potentially become something in between what they are now and LFR. 25s would theoretically end up a bit higher or stay the same. But would that drive the folks who currently have 10s as 'their ideal' to go 25? Or would suddenly they look at content that now isn't quite as challenging (possibly not as fun, knowing that the 'ideal' is locked out because of your group size?), potentially complaining about it vocally? Sure, they'd get loot easier, and I'm sure that will make many happy... but if it's suddenly closer to LFR than to what we'd see currently... not so sure.

Pardon me if I'm dubious. I really don't think this alone will solve the decline of 25 guilds.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 9:31 am

10h would be between 25n and 25h, like in icc
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Mon May 20, 2013 9:43 am

Klaudandus wrote:10h would be between 25n and 25h, like in icc


This is getting well outside amusement, but follow for a sec: If you're going to essentially say that 10s are for the new and sub-par performing raiders... why on earth would you develop a heroic mode, especially if it ends up skipping a difficulty level?
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 9:47 am

benebarba wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:10h would be between 25n and 25h, like in icc


This is getting well outside amusement, but follow for a sec: If you're going to essentially say that 10s are for the new and sub-par performing raiders... why on earth would you develop a heroic mode, especially if it ends up skipping a difficulty level?

But wasnt that what 10h did in icc?
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Mon May 20, 2013 9:51 am

Klaudandus wrote:
benebarba wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:10h would be between 25n and 25h, like in icc


This is getting well outside amusement, but follow for a sec: If you're going to essentially say that 10s are for the new and sub-par performing raiders... why on earth would you develop a heroic mode, especially if it ends up skipping a difficulty level?

But wasnt that what 10h did in icc?


No idea (also no idea how popular it was with 10-only guilds - if it is popular with 25-man guilds is moot). It still seems like an odd choice in the face of comments like 'we need more developers to do <next cool thing that people really want>'.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Flex » Mon May 20, 2013 9:56 am

benebarba wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:10h would be between 25n and 25h, like in icc


This is getting well outside amusement, but follow for a sec: If you're going to essentially say that 10s are for the new and sub-par performing raiders... why on earth would you develop a heroic mode, especially if it ends up skipping a difficulty level?


Here's how I'd do it if they want to bring back a social raiding tier.
10N: 0/2 upgrades
25N: 2/2 upgrades
10H & 25H: +13 ilvl from 10N 0/2 upgrades

Heroic modes tuned to be similar difficulty with same rewards. 10N can be as powerful as 25N but they'd have to spend more to reach that power level. Increase cost of upgrading.

Ultimately I'd rather have a LFR style group queue for social raiding.
Last edited by Flex on Mon May 20, 2013 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby halabar » Mon May 20, 2013 9:58 am

Wait? What?...

So we are suddenly saying here as a group that 10 mans are the suck and good for only noobs, barely a step above LFR, and should get lower quality loot as a result? That seems to be where the discussion is headed...

And we are doing this just because fewer and fewer groups can get 25 people organized consistently for 25 man raiding? So the goal is to force people into 25s if you are a "real" raider?

Why the sudden desire to punish people that raid 10-man? Other than to either force them to 25s or demean them for raiding 10-man?

If 25-man is dying, let it die... (and yes, my current raid team is 25-man)
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 10:00 am

What flex said is pretty much what i was saying, 'cept for the number of upgrades. Although i was thinking of having 10h being somewhat easier just to keep it staggered.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 10:01 am

What flex said is pretty much what i was saying, 'cept for the number of upgrades. Although i was thinking of having 10h being somewhat easier just to keep it staggered.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby halabar » Mon May 20, 2013 10:06 am

Klaudandus wrote:What flex said is pretty much what i was saying, 'cept for the number of upgrades. Although i was thinking of having 10h being somewhat easier just to keep it staggered.


All that to "save" 25 man raiding, and separate from the "vast wasteland" of LFR?

I really don't want to go back to ICC and having to do 3 tiers (or more) of the same raid each week... (let's see... Tuesday is LFR. Wednesday is guild 25, Thursday is guild 10-man, Friday is pugged H mode... errkk.)
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Mon May 20, 2013 10:12 am

Flex wrote:
benebarba wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:10h would be between 25n and 25h, like in icc


This is getting well outside amusement, but follow for a sec: If you're going to essentially say that 10s are for the new and sub-par performing raiders... why on earth would you develop a heroic mode, especially if it ends up skipping a difficulty level?


Here's how I'd do it if they want to bring back a social raiding tier.
10N: 0/2 upgrades
25N: 2/2 upgrades
10H & 25H: +13 ilvl from 10N 0/2 upgrades

Heroic modes tuned to be similar difficulty with sane rewards. 10N can be as powerful as 25N but they'd have to spend more to reach that power level. Increase cost of upgrading.

Ultimately I'd rather have a LFR style group queue for social raiding.


I'm with ya here (I'd go 1/2 upgrade though, unless the difficulty difference was quite large, and give the same amount of VP, gold, etc. and a shared 10/25 lockout) - at some point I actually wonder if it's worth the effort to introduce a small 'social' raiding level based on size alone, while simultaneously expecting it to be premade/guild runs. The work to hit the magic difficulty level to keep it fun and challenging while not making it a small LFR seems like a lot of work.

Regarding giving 10-mans that are lower tuned un-upgraded loot (with the same potential as 25s), I don't see that as punishment so much as I see that as encouragement to do the next thing up (if it is sufficient is questionable). VP can be gotten many ways now, so along side rep vendors and even LFR drops, I feel like you'd have plenty of opportunities to get good loot regardless of if you'd done 10s or 25s.

halabar wrote:If 25-man is dying, let it die... (and yes, my current raid team is 25-man)


This was pretty much my reaction to the comments. There seems to be a whole lot of thought going into keeping 25s alive, and some of it seems really stretching the bounds of logic. Did they try to do this with 40s too?
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Flex » Mon May 20, 2013 10:13 am

halabar wrote:All that to "save" 25 man raiding, and separate from the "vast wasteland" of LFR?


No, none of this is to save 25 man raiding, read the discussion. This is to save social raiding, you know the 9 carrying the 1 while killing bosses.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Mon May 20, 2013 10:21 am

Flex wrote:
halabar wrote:All that to "save" 25 man raiding, and separate from the "vast wasteland" of LFR?


No, none of this is to save 25 man raiding, read the discussion. This is to save social raiding, you know the 9 carrying the 1 while killing bosses.


Well, because of the fact that they are discussing changing 25s to make the loot more attractive (I assume the difficulty wouldn't go up from how it's balanced now), I don't think it's about *not* saving them either.


rather than making *all* 10-mans lower difficulty, I'd rather see a premade-only 10-man LFR queue, that is basically just a smaller version of LFR, dropping the same loot, or perhaps 1/2 upgraded LFR loot and having a reasonably bump up in difficulty. Certainly would have its share of problems, but seems like that would be the way to introduce a 'real' introductory raiding experience, since LFR seems to pretty much be a turn-off.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby halabar » Mon May 20, 2013 12:01 pm

Flex wrote:
halabar wrote:All that to "save" 25 man raiding, and separate from the "vast wasteland" of LFR?


No, none of this is to save 25 man raiding, read the discussion. This is to save social raiding, you know the 9 carrying the 1 while killing bosses.


Well, the problem with that is it's usually the 7 carrying the 3, and you just don't have the flexibility in 10-mans to do that.

But if you lower the level of 10-man gear, or boost 25-man gear, they you are going to just punish those who can't get the group to do 25-man raiding.

Do you really want to farm twice as much valor to upgrade gear just because your guild only does 10-man raiding?

How about this instead, thinking along the lines of heroic scenarios...

LFR+ 15-man raiding, Premade only. Drops ilvl 516 gear. Difficultly level of 10-man but you can bring 5 more bodies. Option of switching current raid lockout to this from either 10N or 25N. (Can't finish the raid this week? Grab a few more on the weekend and finish clearing it. Want to show some new people the fights? bring them along).
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Mon May 20, 2013 12:10 pm

though really, now that I think about it, if it's a premade-only thing... it should probably a drop-down selectable difficulty option or something, since the only reason to queue would be to not have to fly to the instance portal... but I suppose it would also be good if it allowed cross-realm groups.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Flex » Mon May 20, 2013 12:20 pm

halabar wrote:Well, the problem with that is it's usually the 7 carrying the 3, and you just don't have the flexibility in 10-mans to do that.


That was what GC was bringing up. By making 10s and 25s drop the same on normal they made 10s much less forgiving than 25s for the carrying aspect. Also compared to 10s the majority of 25s are focused on Heroic progression which means the social 25 isn't much of a thing currently.

halabar wrote:But if you lower the level of 10-man gear, or boost 25-man gear, they you are going to just punish those who can't get the group to do 25-man raiding.

Do you really want to farm twice as much valor to upgrade gear just because your guild only does 10-man raiding?


There's no punishment in anything I proposed, clearing content gives you a bunch of VP and you'll eventually run out of things to spend it on. End result can be the same.

benebarba wrote:though really, now that I think about it, if it's a premade-only thing... it should probably a drop-down selectable difficulty option or something, since the only reason to queue would be to not have to fly to the instance portal... but I suppose it would also be good if it allowed cross-realm groups.


I try to use "LFR" in quotes to get across the difficulty level I'm proposing.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Mon May 20, 2013 12:52 pm

Flex wrote:That was what GC was bringing up. By making 10s and 25s drop the same on normal they made 10s much less forgiving than 25s for the carrying aspect. Also compared to 10s the majority of 25s are focused on Heroic progression which means the social 25 isn't much of a thing currently.


On this idea that 25 man guilds are by and large heroic progression, using the 25-N as a speed bump... why bother with 25 normal at all then (apart from 'well, that's how we've done it for 3 expansions')? I mean, dropping 25N because of the number of 25H guilds seems to make as much sense as dropping the current 10N into something else because of folks wanting something like LFR but for 10 people who know each other.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby halabar » Mon May 20, 2013 12:59 pm

You are still punishing the 10-man raiding. If I have to grind out more valor to upgrade my gear, that's punishment, and with upgrades factor in, you'd never be done until late in the expac. Consider how many people here bitch about dailies being required to get valor now. Just wait if you make this change.

If you made these changes, especially mid-expansion, you would cause a lot of upheaval. Suddenly 25 is the "real" raiding again, and all the better players will want to be hopping to 25s.

In my guild it would be a real mess. There are 2 25-man teams, and about 15 10-man teams that I know of. Make those changes, and suddenly 2-3 more new 25 mans start up, draining quite a few of the best players from those 10-man teams.

And in guilds that only have one 10-man team, you are going to loose people as they want to hop to the real raiding, and oops, there goes the guild.

I like the LFR+ concept a lot better. It doesn't rock the existing 10/25 structure at all, and provides a way to "carry" some people. And it might provide an alternate raiding path outside of current 10/25.
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