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Post Your Amusements!

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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Mon May 20, 2013 7:56 am

From a recent wowinsider interview with GC (bold mine):

WI: Do you think 25 man raiding has stabilized at all, or is it still in decline? Are you guys working on anything to address that?

GC: I don't know -- overall, I haven't looked at the numbers in awhile -- my hunch would be that it's still in decline honestly, because there aren't a lot of -- it's just entropy, that 25 man guilds collapse into 10 man guilds, and it's really hard for a 10 man guild to decide "Hey, let's recruit a bunch and become 25!" We do like 25 raiding, it offers some -- what we think are cool advantages over 10's. I think personally, 25 feels more epic, you have a whole army of characters assaulting an enemy base. It's a great opportunity to bring in new players to raiding, or you know, your friend who maybe isn't super skilled but wants to see the content.

When you have 10 players, every single slot is pretty precious. You can do things in 25's like kill a bunch of players and they can still succeed, where if you kill five players in a 10, it's probably a wipe. And just what I said before, that 25 has somewhere to go -- if it starts to fall apart, the guild can reorganize itself as a 10, or often a 25 will recruit again to fill the ranks back up, whereas all the time we see 10 player guilds that start to fall apart just fall apart. It's hard for them to back-fill their ranks and keep the guild going. We're worried that the path from 10 is 10 to exit, rather than 10 to a different guild to raid.


Now, I really am not on any side of the 10/25 argument (I wouldn't call it debate), but did he actually just say that? In an interview? 0.o

That said, I hadn't thought about his comment regarding how 25s tended to either downsize or fill up, but 10s seem to just fold.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Flex » Mon May 20, 2013 8:17 am

In 25s you can potentially carry a person a bit easier than in a 10. However how things shake out doesn't make that a reality as most 25 man raids are for heroic raiding where normal modes are a simple gating system for what they really want to do while most 10s aren't for heroic raiding.

There's been lots of discussion going on on his Twitter about social raiding and raiders and where that belong. He's even mentioned that the WotLK model may be better in that regard with 10s being designed easier and dropping weaker gear.

Ultimately it is a "two is not enough" difficulty issue, a 10 man "LFR" requiring a full group to queue for might fix that concern.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Flex » Mon May 20, 2013 8:24 am

Yahoo buying Tumblr for 1.1 billion. That's a penny a GIF!
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 8:45 am

Flex wrote:In 25s you can potentially carry a person a bit easier than in a 10. However how things shake out doesn't make that a reality as most 25 man raids are for heroic raiding where normal modes are a simple gating system for what they really want to do while most 10s aren't for heroic raiding.

There's been lots of discussion going on on his Twitter about social raiding and raiders and where that belong. He's even mentioned that the WotLK model may be better in that regard with 10s being designed easier and dropping weaker gear.

Ultimately it is a "two is not enough" difficulty issue, a 10 man "LFR" requiring a full group to queue for might fix that concern.


Isnt that what they did in asia? 25man drops better gear?
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Flex » Mon May 20, 2013 8:48 am

Klaudandus wrote:Isnt that what they did in asia? 25man drops better gear?


2/4 upgraded gear. They also reset twice weekly I think.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 8:56 am

Flex wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Isnt that what they did in asia? 25man drops better gear?


2/4 upgraded gear. They also reset twice weekly I think.


That could be a solution. 10man drops gear with 0/4 upgrades but is a bit easier to clear, 25man drops the 2/4 upgraded gear. While the initial gear in 25man is better, gear from both raids can be equally as powerful in the end, it just takes longer to do on 10man.

You can also change the color of the 25man gear to make it unique.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Honourless » Mon May 20, 2013 9:06 am

In no way linked to preceding posts/discussion, but definitely amusement as per original thread title, some vids from our guild archives:

http://warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=136253
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Mon May 20, 2013 9:23 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Flex wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Isnt that what they did in asia? 25man drops better gear?


2/4 upgraded gear. They also reset twice weekly I think.


That could be a solution. 10man drops gear with 0/4 upgrades but is a bit easier to clear, 25man drops the 2/4 upgraded gear. While the initial gear in 25man is better, gear from both raids can be equally as powerful in the end, it just takes longer to do on 10man.

You can also change the color of the 25man gear to make it unique.


I more wonder if it will be too late, and if they'll actually be able to make what would be up to 2 more tiers of difficulty (would 10-heroic go away, or would it be harder than 25-N? what about that gear? etc.). History shows that over/undershooting is pretty common in progressive content.

We have LFR for the niche of the old 5-man heroics (partially picked up by heroic scenarios as well, possibly) - namely loot & points with a bit of story on the side. This sort of change means that 10-normals would potentially become something in between what they are now and LFR. 25s would theoretically end up a bit higher or stay the same. But would that drive the folks who currently have 10s as 'their ideal' to go 25? Or would suddenly they look at content that now isn't quite as challenging (possibly not as fun, knowing that the 'ideal' is locked out because of your group size?), potentially complaining about it vocally? Sure, they'd get loot easier, and I'm sure that will make many happy... but if it's suddenly closer to LFR than to what we'd see currently... not so sure.

Pardon me if I'm dubious. I really don't think this alone will solve the decline of 25 guilds.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 9:31 am

10h would be between 25n and 25h, like in icc
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Mon May 20, 2013 9:43 am

Klaudandus wrote:10h would be between 25n and 25h, like in icc


This is getting well outside amusement, but follow for a sec: If you're going to essentially say that 10s are for the new and sub-par performing raiders... why on earth would you develop a heroic mode, especially if it ends up skipping a difficulty level?
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 9:47 am

benebarba wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:10h would be between 25n and 25h, like in icc


This is getting well outside amusement, but follow for a sec: If you're going to essentially say that 10s are for the new and sub-par performing raiders... why on earth would you develop a heroic mode, especially if it ends up skipping a difficulty level?

But wasnt that what 10h did in icc?
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby benebarba » Mon May 20, 2013 9:51 am

Klaudandus wrote:
benebarba wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:10h would be between 25n and 25h, like in icc


This is getting well outside amusement, but follow for a sec: If you're going to essentially say that 10s are for the new and sub-par performing raiders... why on earth would you develop a heroic mode, especially if it ends up skipping a difficulty level?

But wasnt that what 10h did in icc?


No idea (also no idea how popular it was with 10-only guilds - if it is popular with 25-man guilds is moot). It still seems like an odd choice in the face of comments like 'we need more developers to do <next cool thing that people really want>'.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Flex » Mon May 20, 2013 9:56 am

benebarba wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:10h would be between 25n and 25h, like in icc


This is getting well outside amusement, but follow for a sec: If you're going to essentially say that 10s are for the new and sub-par performing raiders... why on earth would you develop a heroic mode, especially if it ends up skipping a difficulty level?


Here's how I'd do it if they want to bring back a social raiding tier.
10N: 0/2 upgrades
25N: 2/2 upgrades
10H & 25H: +13 ilvl from 10N 0/2 upgrades

Heroic modes tuned to be similar difficulty with same rewards. 10N can be as powerful as 25N but they'd have to spend more to reach that power level. Increase cost of upgrading.

Ultimately I'd rather have a LFR style group queue for social raiding.
Last edited by Flex on Mon May 20, 2013 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby halabar » Mon May 20, 2013 9:58 am

Wait? What?...

So we are suddenly saying here as a group that 10 mans are the suck and good for only noobs, barely a step above LFR, and should get lower quality loot as a result? That seems to be where the discussion is headed...

And we are doing this just because fewer and fewer groups can get 25 people organized consistently for 25 man raiding? So the goal is to force people into 25s if you are a "real" raider?

Why the sudden desire to punish people that raid 10-man? Other than to either force them to 25s or demean them for raiding 10-man?

If 25-man is dying, let it die... (and yes, my current raid team is 25-man)
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 10:00 am

What flex said is pretty much what i was saying, 'cept for the number of upgrades. Although i was thinking of having 10h being somewhat easier just to keep it staggered.
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