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Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Jabari » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:04 pm

Sagara wrote:CC
Interrupts
Maintaining proper distance
Fire is bad
Aggro management (for what it's worth)
Healing management
Survival

Miss anything? Also? MAKE IT FUN. And worth your while. 1% of your weekly valor cap, seven times a week? Making sure you don't NEED to if you clean out enough content?


Heh - keeping "on target" with a melee class while that target is moving? My "practice" every week is Yor'sahj oozes - I always manage to either run through it so "you can't attack what you aren't facing", or get too far behind it and it's out of range. I've had the best luck strafing sideways, but I can't ever get correctly parallel to the thing and have to keep adjusting, all while trying to hit my abilities on cue. Fun to work on it though. :)

(also helps for things like the HoT Assassin that throws the smoke bomb - the tank drags her all over everywhere and it's sometimes hard to keep up)
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:45 am

Sagara wrote:Fire is bad (except when it's good)

Rolling on Spine of DW.
Arcanotron buff zones.
Elementals in BoT (removing the ice debuff with the fire wall.)

I'm sure there are a number of other examples, but stuff like that makes it even more confusing.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby econ21 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:36 am

Amirya wrote:As long as the other players were willing to learn, own up to their mistakes and correct that habit, I've tolerated upwards 20 wipes in a single LFG heroic.


Yes, I think my record is probably 19 wipes on Jindoo. Maybe I have changed nowadays, as thanks to LFR and raid progress, I never have to run a 5 man but it used to be that I would never quit a LFG heroic if people were polite and not utterly hopeless (e.g. you need a certain total dps to get past the HoR gauntlet; a boss or two in, it was pretty clear if you had it). I actually quite like teaching people a fight (teaching is my day job) and there is a certain kick out of getting a group to finally kill Jindoo after 19 wipes. I won't pretend I was happy, but it was definitely an achievement of sorts.

I think all the Cata heroics prior to HoT had a fairly large element of learning. I did each one first with my guild, as I knew LFG was not the place for a tank to happily learn a hard fight. I do feel sorry for tanks who don't have a guild to help them learn the ropes; it's one reason I despise the "wtf, tank?" and "gogogo" reflexes of some in LFG and LFR.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:42 am

I've had guild runs that we were incapable of completing Jin'do. Though I think it was a problem of group makeup and not ability.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:15 am

Been there. Worst runs I had were guild runs. This was the guild that cleared normal T11 and a couple heroic modes, on the same toons. Pugs pretty consistently made it through, though with a few wipes. Guild runs took forever and gave up because of time.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:01 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Been there. Worst runs I had were guild runs. This was the guild that cleared normal T11 and a couple heroic modes, on the same toons. Pugs pretty consistently made it through, though with a few wipes. Guild runs took forever and gave up because of time.


Probably because pugs get the Luck of the Draw buff
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby benebarba » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:21 am

Klaudandus wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:Been there. Worst runs I had were guild runs. This was the guild that cleared normal T11 and a couple heroic modes, on the same toons. Pugs pretty consistently made it through, though with a few wipes. Guild runs took forever and gave up because of time.


Probably because pugs get the Luck of the Draw buff


Especially after they got it working properly (can't remember if that was before or after 4.1 though)... if you had a group of good players in a totally PUG'ed group, you'd have a significant improvement in player DPS and healing output as well as health over those same players in a pre-made.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Cema » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:57 pm

This game lacks good class tutorials and skill check during the leveling.

Currently the only way you have to become better is internet, not the game itself. WoW Forums should be directly accessible from the game and the game itself should offer you some challenges during your leveling before leting you level up.

Unfortunately blizzard prefers to make the whole game easier and easier.

On a sidenote I always find funny when people say that nerfing normal and hard modes allows players to see it, because the only difference between these modes and LFR is the difficulty level. Nerfing "hard" doesn't make it accessible, it makes it "easy", so in fact "hard" doesn't exist anymore =)
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby benebarba » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:15 pm

Cema wrote:On a sidenote I always find funny when people say that nerfing normal and hard modes allows players to see it, because the only difference between these modes and LFR is the difficulty level. Nerfing "hard" doesn't make it accessible, it makes it "easy", so in fact "hard" doesn't exist anymore =)


Without getting too much into it, I do find it kind of odd that the usual raid-wide nerfs still happened this tier even with LFR being out. That aspect of the 'accessible' argument seems a bit strange, it's almost like no one thought that a linear raid may actually prove to be a huge problem to the various rates of progression. Combine that with LFR being 25 man only and for coherent groups be almost too easy, it seems like it didn't actually do anything for the slower progressing end of the raider spectrum (other than give them a way to get some upgrades and see some aspects of the fights) and was a much bigger boon to those who probably would only be doing PUG normal modes and 5-man heroics.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Lieris » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:36 am

I don't feel too strongly about the nerfs (I thought the Firelands nerfs were a lot worse) but they have felt like suddenly having 11 people in the raid. After the 5% nerf we one shot Spine (which also had a tendon HP nerf on top of that). After the 10% nerf Madness went down after just a few tries.

Personally I felt like Blizzard killed those bosses for us and I don't feel much personal satisfaction from either of those although part of that is down to how lousy those fights are on heroic as they offer nothing different (no new phases, no new RP etc.).

If heroic modes are not going to have any new phases or encounters and you can literally see everything on LFR and all the interesting new mounts and vanity pets are on the Blizzard pet store then that more than anything makes me worried for the Mists raiding game. I am fed up with reaching a new heroic encounter and it just being the same as what I have been killing since week 1 but with maybe one new add/debuff. Every raid instance should have a Sinestra and more heroic bosses should have a Ragnaros phase 4, something that makes me think to myself "oh my god I am really there!" instead of "here we go again".
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby benebarba » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:45 am

Lieris wrote:If heroic modes are not going to have any new phases or encounters and you can literally see everything on LFR and all the interesting new mounts and vanity pets are on the Blizzard pet store then that more than anything makes me worried for the Mists raiding game. I am fed up with reaching a new heroic encounter and it just being the same as what I have been killing since week 1 but with maybe one new add/debuff. Every raid instance should have a Sinestra and more heroic bosses should have a Ragnaros phase 4, something that makes me think to myself "oh my god I am really there!" instead of "here we go again".


I can totally see that. I really don't think it's too much for heroic-mode raiders to ask for maybe a new boss or some new mechanics/phases on a boss or two compared to normal/LFR. Something to make it seem less like you just cranked up the dial on the same encounter (you know, kinda like how some normal 5-mans and the heroic counterpart have completely different mechanics in the same fight? I'd even count the normal versions where you can ignore abilities in that.). I can understand not making *all* of them different from a developer standpoint. From a gameplay perspective, if the extra boss isn't somehow critical to the story of the raid it doesn't seem like it would matter if you can't see it on normal or LFR, or to make sure it isn't a problem a cutscene could deal with it.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Cema » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:08 am

Lieris wrote:Every raid instance should have a Sinestra and more heroic bosses should have a Ragnaros phase 4, something that makes me think to myself "oh my god I am really there!" instead of "here we go again".


Could't have said it better. Algalon and Sinestra were magic
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Darielle » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:29 pm

Sinestra was. Algalon was OK, but it was basically a simple fight with pretty sparkles and a 1 hour timer. I'd rather they focus on keeping fights compelling instead of relying on that kind of mechanic ever again.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Worldie » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:58 am

Algalon was still a very entertaining and fun fight, compared to say, Spine.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Fenrìr » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:30 am

Worldie wrote:Algalon was still a very entertaining and fun fight, compared to say, Dargon Soul.



Fixed.
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