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Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Barathorn » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:51 am

Astronomic wrote:I think Vash'jir was hands down my favorite zone they've done so speak for youself. Especially when i was on a pvp server. mangle rake enemy -> aquatic form away sweep back in and repeat, must've been like tryn to fight a torpedo xD

Reminds me of the end of Wrath of Khan, where kirk out maneuver's him because Khan isn't thinking in 3 dimensions. So if yall cant handle 3 dimensions then... :P


Fair comment. My own view of the zone and that of most of the Guild I was in at the time was that it was a massive missed opportunity by Blizzard and it was far too hard for new level 80's.

If you rate Vashj'ir over the new Redridge then we won't agree on much :wink:
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby halabar » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:04 am

theckhd wrote:
Koatanga wrote:Cata did it better, but this latest stuff is not up to par. There is no way that a bunch of casuals should be able to go into Dragon Soul in the first week and down 4 bosses with only the help of Icy Veins strats. That's just ridiculous.


I have to ask here: Why? What exactly is wrong with that? I went in there and stomped normal modes the first week on Theck. We even stomped through normal modes on our alt run. That doesn't make it ridiculous. Normal mode isn't my content; both of those characters are decked out in heroic FL gear, and hard modes are my content. I don't complain about normal modes being too easy, because I realize they're not tuned for my skill level. And in fact, I'd expect people to get offended if I loudly complained about how easy normal modes are and how even a "scrub guild" can clear them. (Just to be clear, that's not my opinion or stance on the matter, I'm just presenting it for the sake of the argument).

Why is LFR any different? 90% of the people reading this forum out-skill LFR by design, simply because you're the types of players that care enough to learn about the mechanics and optimize your character. LFR isn't tuned for you, it's tuned for the masses of people who simply log on once or twice a week to smash demons/undead/elementals/dragons in the face. What's wrong with them having their easy mode?

To put it in perspective, is it a problem that someone can waltz through the SC2 campaign on easy while you struggle through it on normal or hard difficulty? Does the fact that they can turn the game down to brain-dead mode somehow invalidate what you've accomplished by playing it on a setting that more directly challenges your ability level?

As an aside (and I'm not specifically pointing fingers at you here Kotanga, since I haven't looked up your post history):

This whole discussion about LFR really strikes me as funny, because I see players who struggle with normal modes complaining about what a travesty it is that "casuals" can clear bosses on LFR and see the content. It's the same level of elitism we've seen over the years from hard-mode raiders, who complained about how easy and undertuned normal modes are ("OMG even scrubs can clear normal mode"). And there was always a backlash against that sentiment from the raiders struggling with normal modes.

Now, I see many of those same players complaining about how easy LFR is and how even a moron could do it, completely oblivious to the fact that just a year ago they were the ones being called morons. It's really kind of hilarious. And it makes it pretty clear that for these players, the source of the problem isn't the difficulty level. It's the level of entitlement they have. "I deserve to get what I want, but players worse than me don't."


So much this.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:21 am

I fucking loved Vashj'ir if for no other reason than it was so fundamentally different from everything we've seen so far in WoW. Also I enjoyed the hell out of the plotline.

Astronomic wrote:I think Vash'jir was hands down my favorite zone they've done so speak for youself. Especially when i was on a pvp server. mangle rake enemy -> aquatic form away sweep back in and repeat, must've been like tryn to fight a torpedo xD

Reminds me of the end of Wrath of Khan, where kirk out maneuver's him because Khan isn't thinking in 3 dimensions. So if yall cant handle 3 dimensions then... :P


This is the one of the few things I didn't like about Vashj'ir. :P Fuck druids.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Mannstein » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:53 am

Sabindeus wrote:I fucking loved Vashj'ir if for no other reason than it was so fundamentally different from everything we've seen so far in WoW. Also I enjoyed the hell out of the plotline.

Astronomic wrote:I think Vash'jir was hands down my favorite zone they've done so speak for youself. Especially when i was on a pvp server. mangle rake enemy -> aquatic form away sweep back in and repeat, must've been like tryn to fight a torpedo xD

Reminds me of the end of Wrath of Khan, where kirk out maneuver's him because Khan isn't thinking in 3 dimensions. So if yall cant handle 3 dimensions then... :P


This is the one of the few things I didn't like about Vashj'ir. :P Fuck druids.

I dunno, but Doting the wandering druids in Vash... allways make me feel like those guys that butcher the baby seals... :S
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby fafhrd » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:55 am

degre wrote:
fafhrd wrote:This is only actually a problem if we assume that player lacks the ability to get better. In an environment where the content stays at the same difficulty for extended periods of time, this is not true, people do learn to get better. Everyone, even 70 year old grandmas who are only really playing because they want to spend some time with their grandkids slowly get better at not standing in fires, clicking the button after the timer on it finishes, etc. People who aren't quite that badly off at the start get better in more useful ways, like spending an evening one day reading up how their spec works, or getting to know what times to kill which things on which boss after enough kills.

If on the other hand the environment is such that everything is nerfed periodically, then things do stay too hard for a lot of people, because they never experience anything too hard to deal with - by the time they're through nerfed Tier 12 normal, LFR is out, and by the time they're through 6/8 LFR, Tier 13 normal is nerfed. If they ever get stuck on something for too long, no sweat, it will be nerfed. This perpetuates the problem.

You're getting it so wrong you don't have an idea... you are assuming that people are like you, that people want to learn, improve, study to do better in their hobby, so wrong...

Not everyone is the same, some are scrubs now and will be forever, because attitudes are different and some are just not interested. Some might just not get it, some might just lack the ability to notice thing and react quickly, some just don't give a damn.

My girlfriend is a casual scrub, she decided to roll a tankadin after me, took over a month just to have her understand that she doesn't need int gear, and she got it just after I've got extremely pissed after she rolled on something 'but it's better then mine!'. Over a month ago eventually managed to grasp that she has to need only on plate with strenght... So I explained her which strength bits to wear, and to make it simple I told her 'everything but critical and haste, if either of those 2 is on don't use it', two days ago she showed me her shiny new boots with mastery and crit.

I gave her the link to maintankadin and a few other other resources, do you think she read it? I doubt, judging from that shiny 40 strength gem in her boots.


So, yes, some player can get better, some just don't give a fuck.



I'm not sure how you missed the line right above the one you bolded, but you seem to have. People get better - that doesn't mean everyone becomes Theck. If those crit mastery boots your GF showed you were STR/crit/mastery boots, that's better than the leather int/crit/mastery boots she'd have shown you before.

With tiered content difficutly, she doesn't need to become Theck - just learning the lesson that she should wear STR plate instead of INT cloth is enough to get her through LFR tiers. There is no gain for anyone, her included, making her feel she needs to progress through normal or heroic.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Flex » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:21 am

I've enjoyed Cataclysm more than any other expansion.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby econ21 » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:22 am

theckhd wrote:
Koatanga wrote:Cata did it better, but this latest stuff is not up to par. There is no way that a bunch of casuals should be able to go into Dragon Soul in the first week and down 4 bosses with only the help of Icy Veins strats. That's just ridiculous.


I have to ask here: Why? What exactly is wrong with that? I went in there and stomped normal modes the first week on Theck. ....

Why is LFR any different? ....

This whole discussion about LFR really strikes me as funny..


I don't think Koatanga was talking about being able to down four bosses in the first week in LFR. I think he was talking about doing so in normal. And he was not talking about doing so with heroic raid geared characters, or with heroic raid quality players, but with "casuals".

On his own terms, he would surely be right. If there are 8 raid bosses and we have to play with them for many months before MoP, then the first 4 probably should last longer than a week. The reason is longevity: kill them too quick and you have nothing to do before the next expansion. The existence of heroic modes does not change that: heroic modes are not designed for casuals and it may be unrealistic to expect them to progress to those. (My only experience of heroic mode was attempting a couple of fights in T11: they seemed just vastly harder than normal and so far out of my league, I discount them.)

Personally, I am not sure Koatanga is right that "casuals" could kill 4 bosses in one week on normal, but he is not far wrong. I am in a "casual" guild that raids. We were 1/4 on week 1. 3/4 in the second week. I am hopeful we can down Hagara this weekend. However, I gather Ultraxion is a pretty steep dps check so that may roadblock us for quite a while.

It's tricky balancing these things. For people like me, T11 and T12 were a little rough at the start. I am not sure the guilds I were in could have progressed without the nerfs. I read something by GC that if guilds fail to to progress on a boss for several weeks, there is a danger the raiding group starts to break up as people get discouraged. I experienced something like that: we downed Shannox, but Beth'tilac was just out of reach given our dps output. After repeatedly banging our heads on him, morale and sign-ups plummeted. The whole existence of the guild started to seem in doubt. Then, there was the nerf (15% or so?) and the whole Firelands suddenly opened up for us. The new guild I had moved to in order to raid was no longer stymied; my old guild that had ceased raiding, started again and went from strength to strength.

I don't have much to complain about raid difficulty. I like Blizzard's strategy of trying to tune it so that it is accessible to all. Being able to kill the Lich King (thanks to the 30% nerf) was great for me. I hope to be able to down Deathwing on normal mode too.

I am a little sad that Blizzard seems to have turned back from what it did on 4.0 in pitching Cata 5-man heroics at BC levels. Being only an intermittent raider, I think having challenging 5-man content is a big strength. Those "gogogo" players are not having fun in faceroll dungeons - that's why they want to get out.

And playing SWTOR reminds me of how pitiful the experience of levelling in WoW is now. It's ridiculously fast and unchallenging. WoW is too oriented towards the endgame, so that we fixate on 8 bosses and neglect all the potentially great content available for the other 84 levels.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Flex » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:27 am

Klaudandus wrote:There is a reason why Wrath was immensely popular, and I'm guessing this was the reason.

People that joined Warcraft in Wrath got quite the shock when Cata rolled in.


The issue with that is Wrath saw only a million subscriber growth, with the bulk of that coming after they released it in China. So unless there was a huge turnover of players thinking it was too easy leaving and being replaced by other players I can't buy that.

theck wrote:This whole discussion about LFR really strikes me as funny, because I see players who struggle with normal modes complaining about what a travesty it is that "casuals" can clear bosses on LFR and see the content. It's the same level of elitism we've seen over the years from hard-mode raiders.


From my experience it is rarely the truly hardcore that complain about lower tier difficulty, but those on the cusp that complain the most.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby degre » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:42 am

fafhrd wrote:I'm not sure how you missed the line right above the one you bolded, but you seem to have. People get better - that doesn't mean everyone becomes Theck. If those crit mastery boots your GF showed you were STR/crit/mastery boots, that's better than the leather int/crit/mastery boots she'd have shown you before.

With tiered content difficutly, she doesn't need to become Theck - just learning the lesson that she should wear STR plate instead of INT cloth is enough to get her through LFR tiers. There is no gain for anyone, her included, making her feel she needs to progress through normal or heroic.

I have not missed it, still, she's getting better because I'm pushing information onto her, because when I started teaching her a bit she was all like 'I don't care, I just want to mash buttons', eventually she wanted to try heroics and she ended up seeing that maybe I wasn't talking shit and I've had a point, as she was getting kicked out of every group, but this is heroic, in LFR someone like her would go on, maybe perform in an abysmal way, but completing the dungeon would equate to a success, and if you're successful why read to improve? your internet dragon is dead...

Like her is full of these people, sure, in a way they will slightly improve over the time, even an old dog can learn tricks, but from there to actively learning and not being completely useless there's a long distance and many are simply not interested in walking it.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:43 am

Flex wrote:From my experience it is rarely the truly hardcore that complain about lower tier difficulty, but those on the cusp that complain the most.


But in their defense, the people who feel like, with just a little more work they COULD be beating whatever heroic boss they're stuck on are the ones who feel the most cheated by nerfs to content difficulty. The "truly hardcore" already beat that encounter weeks ago. The "casuals" aren't even thinking about it. It's those guys who roflstomp normals only to get cockblocked by a heroic who care the most about the difficulty of the game because they are the ones currently experiencing that difficulty.

For these guys, it's a question of "can we do this?" and proving that yes, we can if we play to the best of our ability. For the truly hardcore it's not about whether they can, but about if they can do it before the other guys who are also guaranteed to beat it at some point.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Cowmmunion » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:46 am

I guess that I see this a little bit differently, because unlike the rest of you, I just recently started playing. I had played for a month over christmas break, and gotten my tankadin up to 85 and in ~348 gear. The closest he ever came to being in a raid was one BH kill and some trash in BWD. I started playing again about 4 weeks before 4.3 hit, because I've got a year off of school working a 9-5 job and I suddenly had time to be able to do so.

I joined my GF's guild, that has a good raid group but no room. I got geared up to ~360 and was able to go with their alt group the last 2 weeks of 4.2, and am thus 6/7 twice (both times we ran out of time for Rag). After a week of 4.3, I was in ~378 gear. I found a few people, who either recently started playing or just came back to the game, and we are starting to put together a 10 man raiding group. For the past two weeks, we've been pugging DS with a core of ~5 regulars, and we've managed to put together a decent list of people from those we've gone with.

The first day, we did Morchok with no trouble and then wiped on Zon'ozz 23 times - between bugginess, some bad players, and being in 378's. The next day we came back, with a few different players, and did him in ~7 tries, and then did Hagara in about ~8, and wiped on Ultrax for a while with 3 healers. Our 378's didn't do enough DPS to 3 heal it, so we switched to 2 heals and got Ultrax down to 152k in our second two heal shot before we drew wife aggro. The third day, we downed Ultrax and got in a few tries at Blackhorn. This week we are 5/8 already (2 nights of raiding) and plan on working on the rest on sat/sun/monday. To me, this content seems tuned right.

Are we supposed to be going back and raiding heroic FL for a few months to get the gear to run DS? If it was tuned any harder, we'd be failing the gear checks. For those of you who were in HFL gear coming in, it should feel easy. We are wiping on mechanics - as we should be, being a new group that normally has a few puggers in it. But gearwise, we are just beating the enrage timers, just keeping enough healing going. Is everyone playing their class perfectly, with expensive enchants and perfect rotations? Probably not. But our lowest regular DPS is pulling ~24k in low 380 gear, which isn't horrible. And when we have the mechanics of the fights down, we barely beat the enrage timer after a few tries.

Are groups like mine supposed to be wiping constantly and unable to even beat Ultrax? And if so, how are we supposed to gear up more - running heroic FL? Farming Valor for 2 months until we can wear those pieces?

I'm curious, for those that say it's "too easy" in normal mode. What is too easy? What kind of DPS do you want someone in 378's to put out for a fight like Ultrax in normal mode? Are the mechanics what you consider to be too easy? Are we supposed to have to farm old content - bring back the attunements in that way?
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:47 am

degre wrote:Like her is full of these people, sure, in a way they will slightly improve over the time, even an old dog can learn tricks, but from there to actively learning and not being completely useless there's a long distance and many are simply not interested in walking it.


This is very true. Pushing buttons and getting visual feedback from it is fun on a very basic psychological level. The additional step of knowing which numbers benefit you is not fun for everyone.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Kelaan » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:49 am

econ21 wrote:If there are 8 raid bosses and we have to play with them for many months before MoP, then the first 4 probably should last longer than a week. The reason is longevity: kill them too quick and you have nothing to do before the next expansion.... We were 1/4 on week 1. 3/4 in the second week. I am hopeful we can down Hagara this weekend. However, I gather Ultraxion is a pretty steep dps check so that may roadblock us for quite a while.


I like having more than once boss to farm. ToC was frustrating for my guild as it took us a LONG time to master Beasts. The first few bosses DO seem undertuned, but on the other hand it's still fun, and exposes a LARGE part of the player base to significant complexity on normal mode. Ultraxion is very much a cockblock, though. I do not think there's any amount of ilevel 400 gear that will get some of our people to meet the DPS requirements. It's also really, really fun. (Maybe less fun after another week of wipes. ;))

I like that Dragon Soul tests us in different ways. Some fights are fire-avoidance, some are DPS checks. Ultraxion, once you master avoiding instant death, is very much a Patchwerk-esque straight up numbers test. You must hit this hard, and heal this hard, to get on this ride.

Also, Vash'jir. I loved the lore, it was effing beautiful, etc. I did not want to go back on later toons, though, simply because the phasing was so complex. Hyjal had similar phasing, but was a rep I wanted more. ;) Also, fuck 3d navigation. >_< However, I still think it was an awesome zone, merely one I don't want to return to anytime soon. (Same for the lore in Twilight Highlands. Great! awesome! I'm gonna pay 5k for crafted gear that will let me skip it.)

edit: To the guy above me, yes, I think that farming valor is part of the expectation that Blizzard has.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Flex » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:51 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Flex wrote:From my experience it is rarely the truly hardcore that complain about lower tier difficulty, but those on the cusp that complain the most.


But in their defense, the people who feel like, with just a little more work they COULD be beating whatever heroic boss they're stuck on are the ones who feel the most cheated by nerfs to content difficulty.


My view is extremely tainted from the official forums where I've seen multiple people with 0/8 to 2/8 normal Dragon Soul, 8/8 LFR Dragon Soul and at best 6/7 normal Firelands complaining that the game is too easy. So they're not even on the cusp of being hardmode raiders, but normal mode raiders.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:52 am

I really can't understand why people bother reading the official forums.
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