Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Koatanga » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:09 pm

My reward comes from achieving something that was difficult. When we spend a few nights/weeks on a boss and finally kill it, that's awesome. When we spend a few nights/weeks on a boss and it gets nerfed and then we get the kill, it's not awesome.

I don't like that they dumb down the content until scrubs like us can get it, because it doesn't help us to become less scrub-like. If we had to achieve it on our own, it would be more rewarding when we finally got it.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Kelaan » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:29 pm

Koatanga wrote:I don't like that they dumb down the content until scrubs like us can get it, because it doesn't help us to become less scrub-like. If we had to achieve it on our own, it would be more rewarding when we finally got it.

I can totally understand why you feel this way. On the other hand, it's supremely frustrating to never get to experience the content because you (or your raid team, or both) are unable to defeat the prior content. I never got to experience T6 progression, because I'd never been able to beat T5. My old main had one Nefarion kill, and we never killed him again, so we never saw AQ40 or Naxxramas (T3) more than once (and that was to wipe on the first boss horribly enough to discourage the raid).

In contrast, Wrath was much easier. We cleared Naxxramas, and most of Ulduar, and ToC. We eventually cleared ICC, too, and in the meantime I (and others) raided hard modes of past content (Ulduar) until we earned our drakes. The rush of beating hard (for us) stuff is certainly valid, and I would love to be able to raid as a peer with a Much Better raid team (ha ha, hubris) that clears content while it's current, and kills heroic versions too.... but I don't think that will happen anytime soon. So, I'm willing to trade away the challenge of Really Hard bosses in favor of LFR or normal modes, since those let me actually "finish" content.

{edit: And, heroic modes are still there as an option when we want to become less scrub-like.}

I think that's part of the reason I'm hoping to transition more to PvP. In theory (ha ha, hubris) I can learn to play well, and earn reknown and gear for that, and always be challenged at the edge of my abilities, yet still win enough to feel satisfied. :D Now, if I could only find an arena team.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby fafhrd » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:15 pm

mavfin wrote:
fafhrd wrote:For stuff other than raid difficulty, I just fundamentally disagree with things like removing talent trees to bring in multiple choice questionnaires of abilities like they previewed for MoP. That is removing depth from a game any way you slice it


I disagree with this. There wasn't any depth to it as it was. You either used the cookie-cutters or you were doing it wrong, as far as the community was concerned, including this community. So, they removed that part. If you pick X spec, you'll get the optimized tree for it already. Then you have other choices you can make, but there's less of them, and it seems many of them are utility-type, rather than core spec-related.

I'll leave it at that. There's a whole thread on the MoP talents.


I no longer have the ability to combine talents across trees, since some talents are being made tree specific auto-learn things. I fail to see how this is not a loss. There are currently plenty of cases where there were floating points even in cookie cutter specs that you picked based on circumstance, that is not there in the future unless they choose to put those talents in the new talent system - and they can't put everything into that system because it's a fixed number of choices per class, and they can't give any class too many.

Especially aggravating is that the only choices we will have are the ones Blizzard specifically chooses to give us, instead of the actual fun of finding combinations of talents that blizzard didn't anticipate that happen to work really well together. Interactions between talents are the most fun part of any system that offers talents.

But you're right, this doesn't need to be in this thread, and it doesn't matter either way since arguing it isn't going to change anything regardless of what thread it's in.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby fafhrd » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:31 pm

Kelaan wrote:
Koatanga wrote:I don't like that they dumb down the content until scrubs like us can get it, because it doesn't help us to become less scrub-like. If we had to achieve it on our own, it would be more rewarding when we finally got it.

I can totally understand why you feel this way. On the other hand, it's supremely frustrating to never get to experience the content because you (or your raid team, or both) are unable to defeat the prior content. I never got to experience T6 progression, because I'd never been able to beat T5. My old main had one Nefarion kill, and we never killed him again, so we never saw AQ40 or Naxxramas (T3) more than once (and that was to wipe on the first boss horribly enough to discourage the raid).

In contrast, Wrath was much easier. We cleared Naxxramas, and most of Ulduar, and ToC. We eventually cleared ICC, too, and in the meantime I (and others) raided hard modes of past content (Ulduar) until we earned our drakes. The rush of beating hard (for us) stuff is certainly valid, and I would love to be able to raid as a peer with a Much Better raid team (ha ha, hubris) that clears content while it's current, and kills heroic versions too.... but I don't think that will happen anytime soon. So, I'm willing to trade away the challenge of Really Hard bosses in favor of LFR or normal modes, since those let me actually "finish" content.

{edit: And, heroic modes are still there as an option when we want to become less scrub-like.}

I think that's part of the reason I'm hoping to transition more to PvP. In theory (ha ha, hubris) I can learn to play well, and earn reknown and gear for that, and always be challenged at the edge of my abilities, yet still win enough to feel satisfied. :D Now, if I could only find an arena team.


That's the thing though, right now they should be able to cater to everyone - no one should be frustrated at never seeing content because LFR is ridiculously easy and will be kept ridiculously easy so people who don't have time for a guild at all can still see content, and normal is a bit harder but still easy enough for people who feel like raiding a night or two a week in organized fashion can still progress through the tier before the next one. If Blizzard would just commit to keeping those two modes to satisfy complaints of "everyone should see the content", and then proceed to balance heroic mode so that it stays uniformly hard through at least the current expansion, it would be great. I would be fine with any number of irritating changes to the rest of the game if I thought there were still people working at blizzard set on making Heroic T14-T17 a satisfying thing to progress through, and wouldn't one day out of the blue cave and nerf T15H because they thought too many people who spent several months clearing T15N shouldn't be stuck on the first boss of T15H. Why should it matter if people for whom Normal mode was implemented can't deal with heroic mode? Surely it's better for them and for the game if Heroic stays the same, so they can learn to overcome it, thereby clearing normal faster next tier and getting more time to work on the next set of heroics.

Take this tier 13 for instance, Heroic tuning seems great, and normal seemed good too, perhaps a bit hard towards the end, but that means normal mode guilds have something to progress on instead of being bored by week 2. I have no complaints about it and look forward to working through as much of it as I can before the expansion ends. The problem though is I have no faith at all that blizzard will keep it this way - while they'll definitely nerf the last 2 heroic bosses soon once the first half dozen guilds manage to beat them after hundreds of hours of attempts, they will also nerf most of the other bosses too, because normal mode guilds that finally cleared on normal will be stuck at 1/8H for a month, and Blizzard will think that's not nice.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Lieris » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:56 pm

1. Heroic modes should be open from the start. Forcing everyone to do normal modes when they vastly outgear and outperform them makes for a very unsatisfying first raid week. Either that or make new encounters for heroic mode.

2. Levelling process is still too easy and teaches you nothing as to how you should play your class.

3. No Abyssal Maw and War of the Ancients raids to go with tiers 12 and 13. We got massively burnt out on Firelands and will do pretty quickly on Dragon Soul too. It has also meant a lot of gaps in itemisation.

4. Tank gear and especially tank threat feel fairly meaningless. The extreme diminishing returns on avoidance, the lower stamina on our gear and the removal of +armour gear were mistakes. Our 2 piece set bonuses always suck too. DPSers just scale far better than we do.

5. The cut-scenes are horrible. I liked what they did in WOTLK but the ones in Cata were usually unnecessary and/or poorly done. The cut-scene for Spine of DW was a really bad idea.

6. Archaeology is even more boring than fishing.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Koatanga » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:08 pm

Kelaan wrote:I can totally understand why you feel this way. On the other hand, it's supremely frustrating to never get to experience the content because you (or your raid team, or both) are unable to defeat the prior content. I never got to experience T6 progression, because I'd never been able to beat T5. My old main had one Nefarion kill, and we never killed him again, so we never saw AQ40 or Naxxramas (T3) more than once (and that was to wipe on the first boss horribly enough to discourage the raid).


People with sufficient ambition to see the highest content should join with like-minded people in guilds that attempt that content.

I am not bothered that I haven't killed Ragnaros heroic, because I killed him in normal. Had I never killed him at all, that would be an entirely different feeling.

I actually liked the way things were in BC, even to the point of attunements, although I think there are better ways to handle attunements. The people raiding Black Temple were looked up to by the scrubs like me in TK and SSC, and I was fine with that.

At the end of BC they nerfed the hell out of everything so that we scrubs could go in and kill things we otherwise couldn't and it was a bit of fun, although it chafed the hell out of the elite raiders that we dared to soil their bosses with our crude weapons.

Wrath had it all wrong with the multiple raid resets causing people to kill the same stupid bosses umpteen times every week. Talk about burnout. Some liked it because it was more chances for purple things, but I hated running the same bosses 10-man and 25-man, normal and heroic. I'm looking at you, ToC.

Cata did it better, but this latest stuff is not up to par. There is no way that a bunch of casuals should be able to go into Dragon Soul in the first week and down 4 bosses with only the help of Icy Veins strats. That's just ridiculous.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:32 pm

Lieris wrote:3. No Abyssal Maw and War of the Ancients raids to go with tiers 12 and 13. We got massively burnt out on Firelands and will do pretty quickly on Dragon Soul too. It has also meant a lot of gaps in itemisation.


I did openly say that I disliked the fact that Cataclysm, as a whole, has less raid bosses than T7 and T8 combined. Of course, some people complained that T7 shouldn't really count since it was rehashed Naxxramas, but many people never stepped into Naxx when it was a 40man raid.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby mavfin » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:41 pm

Koatanga wrote:At the end of BC they nerfed the hell out of everything so that we scrubs could go in and kill things we otherwise couldn't and it was a bit of fun, although it chafed the hell out of the elite raiders that we dared to soil their bosses with our crude weapons.


Koatanga wrote:Cata did it better, but this latest stuff is not up to par. There is no way that a bunch of casuals should be able to go into Dragon Soul in the first week and down 4 bosses with only the help of Icy Veins strats. That's just ridiculous.


So I guess now you're one of the elite raiders that doesn't like having your bosses soiled? Those two paragraphs in the same post don't make a lot of sense to me. :D

Edit: Copy/paste fun, deleted wrong passage
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:46 pm

There's nothing wrong for casuals to go into DS, my guess is that some of the excitement is lost when it's so easy you can roll thru it in such a short time, vis a vis other raid tiers.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby halabar » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:13 pm

Klaudandus wrote:There's nothing wrong for casuals to go into DS, my guess is that some of the excitement is lost when it's so easy you can roll thru it in such a short time, vis a vis other raid tiers.


4-8 more bosses would help.

LFR is tuned correctly.

Normal is a bit undertuned.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby mavfin » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:16 pm

halabar wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:There's nothing wrong for casuals to go into DS, my guess is that some of the excitement is lost when it's so easy you can roll thru it in such a short time, vis a vis other raid tiers.


4-8 more bosses would help.

LFR is tuned correctly.

Normal is a bit undertuned.


The debate, really, is who it was really tuned for. And only Blizzard knows for sure.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:25 pm

mavfin wrote:
halabar wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:There's nothing wrong for casuals to go into DS, my guess is that some of the excitement is lost when it's so easy you can roll thru it in such a short time, vis a vis other raid tiers.


4-8 more bosses would help.

LFR is tuned correctly.

Normal is a bit undertuned.


The debate, really, is who it was really tuned for. And only Blizzard knows for sure.


Agreed, maybe this time around, it was really tuned for 378 gear... and many in my raid group had at least a 2pc of T12 heroic gear, amongst other upgrades.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Koatanga » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:50 pm

mavfin wrote:
Koatanga wrote:At the end of BC they nerfed the hell out of everything so that we scrubs could go in and kill things we otherwise couldn't and it was a bit of fun, although it chafed the hell out of the elite raiders that we dared to soil their bosses with our crude weapons.


Koatanga wrote:Cata did it better, but this latest stuff is not up to par. There is no way that a bunch of casuals should be able to go into Dragon Soul in the first week and down 4 bosses with only the help of Icy Veins strats. That's just ridiculous.


So I guess now you're one of the elite raiders that doesn't like having your bosses soiled? Those two paragraphs in the same post don't make a lot of sense to me. :D

Edit: Copy/paste fun, deleted wrong passage

Way to miss the point.

There is a vast difference between a casual guild getting to raid Black Temple for one month before Wrath dropped and a casual guild clearing 4 of the highest raid tier bosses on the first week of release.

The end of BC was sort of an Open House for the casuals to have a play in content otherwise unavailable to them for a short period of time when any loot from the raid was going to be made obsolete by the new expansion anyway.

There was no way in hell my casual guild could have handled that content pre-nerf. Cut to the present day when we can clear the first 4 bosses of the 3rd raid tier without really knowing what we're doing.

We should not be able to soil Dragon Soul bosses with our crude weapons and 378 gear. We should be trying to master old heroic content and new LFR-tier to gear up to handle the first boss of DS normal. Instead, the first quasi gear-check comes on the 5th boss, and we even passed that with a bit of effort.

Do you see what I mean now?
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby mavfin » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:55 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Do you see what I mean now?


I know what you mean, but, you're assuming that it should be tuned to be challenging for you. As I said above, maybe it's tuned for someone else. Only Blizzard knows who it's tuned for. They can't tune any one difficulty for every guild that raids that difficulty.

My Alliance guild that I don't raid with anymore 2-shot boss #1, and then wiped a while on #2 before getting it down the first day and stopping there. They'll go back on Saturday for another shot at stuff. Who's to say they're not the target it was tuned for?

So, while it was 'too easy' for you, it was 'about right' for them. See what I mean?
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:03 pm

Koatanga wrote:We should not be able to soil Dragon Soul bosses with our crude weapons and 378 gear. We should be trying to master old heroic content and new LFR-tier to gear up to handle the first boss of DS normal. Instead, the first quasi gear-check comes on the 5th boss, and we even passed that with a bit of effort.

Do you see what I mean now?


Hmm, what? As far as I know, Normal Tier raiding is tuned around for a complete set of Normal Tier-1, or at least they say it's supposed to be like that.

T12 normal felt harder initially because the data was skewed in favor of people in T11 heroics.
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