Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Zobel » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:54 pm

Cataclysm didn't add enough zones; enough levels; enough dungeons; enough content.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:58 pm

Sagara wrote:I enjoyed Cata quite a bit. Maybe not as much as BC and Lich King, but i can't even pinpoint a cause. I think it has a bit to do with Arthas' storytelling that was compelling to me (fallen hero type), where Deathwing was more of an absolute evil that you have to beat back one way or another.

Maybe that's it: Where Arthas was an Antagonist, Deathwing was merely a catalist, and the good stories happened on the sidelines (Leyara would a vilainous example, where Kalec is a heroic example).

Otherwise? It was a decent x-pack, with a lot of work put in to give us things to DO outside raid nights. Not always successful, but the concept is what matters to me.


I liked both styles of storytelling, and I absolutely love Deathwing as a force of nature style villain, but the other plot threads like Thrall/Aggra and the loss of Hillsbrad just rubbed me the wrong way, whereas Bolvar's death and heroic sacrifice was one of the high points of my enjoyment of the WoW storyline so far. The entire Wrathgate plotline was decidedly the most emotional I have ever gotten over WoW lore.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby fafhrd » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:19 pm

Sabindeus wrote:I personally think it's unrealistic to have a video game you play constantly for 7 years. If you move on then so be it, that's the cycle of video games, right?


Completely true yes. Very likely that even if they kept doing things I prefer to Wrath and MoP I'd be tired of their decisions by now.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Aanar » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:22 pm

Astronomic wrote:The problem with the gating of randoms via achievements or something like that is over time you will get a disproportionate amount of bads in the early ones, too many for a couple of goods to carry and that will cause the goods to suffer to because they cant down it on easymode cuz they are surrounded by tards.

You new alt of yours hits 85 gets some gaer and ques for LFR. if the gating has been out for a fwe months you will literally be in a sea of bads while the goods have already gone on to the higher difficulties.


The more I think about it, you're right. I guess I was trying to make sure the acheivements were more individual focused than group-based, but if your crap group can't even down the boss, you'd be SoL. I did do a couple of the old heroics when 4.3 came out for JP and was surprised how bad some groups were.

I remember back when I played Everquest, the Planes of Power expansion had group "trials" that unlocked a zone. They made several different trials and you only needed to finish one, but they were tough. The playerbase figured out which one was the easiest, what group comp to use and the strat to beat it. So it got my character through, but I never wanted to go back. I did a couple times for friends, but I remember one player quit out of frustration because no matter how we tried, we just couldn't get her through just because of her character class just didn't fit with the strat.

If segragating the playerbase based on skill isn't an option I guess dungeon and raid finder are left with designing content for the lowest common denominator and if you want anything harder, you need organization.

I guess I was hoping there was some other way, since I love being able to just play when I can and want to without the commitment of a raid schedule. I've played way more per week since 4.3 hit than I ever have before but if this model goes forward for MoP, I'd probably just sub for a month for each major patch and call it good. Maybe after 5 years, it's just time for a new game. :o
Last edited by Aanar on Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:30 pm

Aanar wrote:I guess I was hoping there was some other way, since I love being able to just play when I can and want to without the commitment of a raid schedule. I've played way more per week since 4.3 hit than I ever have before but if this model goes forward for MoP, I'd probably just sub for a month for each major patch and call it good. Maybe after it's just time for a new game. :o


This is pretty much exactly what I want out of this game. I don't want to feel like I HAVE to play all the time just to keep up. That's why I never did Naxxramas (T3) or Sunwell.

edit: actually in fairness I didn't do Naxxramas because I was in a guild full of dicks and Blizzard didn't want Paladins to be viable at anything except spamming rank 4 Holy Light
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby fafhrd » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:54 pm

mavfin wrote:As for Fafhrd, I would have to say, that in my opinion, they tried to make the game to more satisfy your category of player at Cata launch, and lost a couple million subs over the next six to nine months. In my personal opinion, those roughly two million weren't primarily your type of player. I think it was the opposite. If the people leaving were your type of player, why isn't 4.3 harder? I'm not personally attacking you; what you want to play is what you want to play. I'm just saying that you're not Blizzard's target now. People who want a hard game, and nothing but a hard game; i.e. no easier difficulties for anyone, don't make for multi-million player MMOs.


The irritating thing is, I don't think they needed to pick one or the other. With things like LFR and normal mode, they have room to support 3 tiers of difficulty and literally never ever have to nerf heroic modes for anything other than bug fixes. The T12 mess seems to indicate they don't think that's enough and will still nerf heroic modes eventually for no good reason, although it's arguable they only did that in T12 because LFR wasn't out yet (I don't really believe this, but it's a claim I can't counter if someone makes it).

For stuff other than raid difficulty, I just fundamentally disagree with things like removing talent trees to bring in multiple choice questionnaires of abilities like they previewed for MoP. That is removing depth from a game any way you slice it, and makes for a worse Game imo - I don't care if it makes them more money, if pokemon games had less complexity in the combat mechanics and made more money, they would still have been worse games than the ones we actually got - games can still be incredibly appealing to players of all types without losing complexity.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby halabar » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:56 pm

A lot of the Cata issues would have been addressed if Firelands had about 4 more bosses, and DS had about 8 more.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Amirya » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:02 pm

And if 4.2 had introduced more dungeons. Trolls got realllllly old quickly.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:09 pm

Amirya wrote:And if 4.2 had introduced more dungeons. Trolls got realllllly old quickly.


Solution: stop playing in 4.1, pick game back up in 4.3. :D
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Amirya » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:21 pm

I mostly did, since I went back to school, and usually only logged in for raids or to troll bldavis.

Or both.

Now, I'm logging in for raids and to try and pick up the last piece of the Sundered armor set for my shaman.

Or to troll bldavis.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Kelaan » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:21 pm

Despite many of you having valid criticisms, this is one of my most enjoyable patches.

- I still enjoy playing my paladin.
- challenging but not absurd heroic dungeons
- challenging normal modes (for my group)
- VP->JP cost conversions for old tiers, since I have never had a "full set" of gear.
- Prot PvP. I loves it. <3
- LFR. I love it, and wish there were a 10-man version.
- Cross-realm (RealID) groups for dungeons, pvp, and LFR
- relatively easy stepping stones for content, so you can skip old crap on your Nth alt (or first).
- Dailies that I feel I can skip, yet are still rewarding if I don't.
- Vengeance. I know it has its problems, but it's nice to be able to contribute seriously to killing things. I miss good threat generation being something to be proud of, but maximizing damage has the same effect. ;)
- FINALLY being able to block cap. Yay!

I realize a lot will change, and a lot HAS changed. I don't bemoan the easy Heroic raids, as ... I've never ever been in one. I am looking forward to 5.0's changes to progressing one's character -- partly as this expansion has led me to trust Blizzard even more to deliver on the "making it more fun and less like hammering your hand on an anvil" promise.

I liked the lore in the previous expansion better, but I really like that I no longer feel like my options are Raid or GTFO. I _especially_ like that LFR exists to let me have a taste of the fights, even if they are totally neutered, so that on the rare occasion I do get to raid, I am not a complete stranger. (Also, it's nice to see a tier boss die.)
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby mavfin » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:29 pm

fafhrd wrote:For stuff other than raid difficulty, I just fundamentally disagree with things like removing talent trees to bring in multiple choice questionnaires of abilities like they previewed for MoP. That is removing depth from a game any way you slice it


I disagree with this. There wasn't any depth to it as it was. You either used the cookie-cutters or you were doing it wrong, as far as the community was concerned, including this community. So, they removed that part. If you pick X spec, you'll get the optimized tree for it already. Then you have other choices you can make, but there's less of them, and it seems many of them are utility-type, rather than core spec-related.

I'll leave it at that. There's a whole thread on the MoP talents.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Aanar » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:39 pm

Kelaan wrote:Despite many of you having valid criticisms, this is one of my most enjoyable patches.


Oh yeah, my favorite too. 4.3 seems like what 4.0 and 4.2 should have been. The complete opposite philosophy between them has left me with some kind of whiplash.

As a side note, I don't really understand why they blow ~10 dungeons at the start of an expansion and then only give 0-3 at each major patch rather than space them out better. Like 5 for each major patch would be a lot better.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:46 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Aanar wrote:I guess I was hoping there was some other way, since I love being able to just play when I can and want to without the commitment of a raid schedule. I've played way more per week since 4.3 hit than I ever have before but if this model goes forward for MoP, I'd probably just sub for a month for each major patch and call it good. Maybe after it's just time for a new game. :o


This is pretty much exactly what I want out of this game. I don't want to feel like I HAVE to play all the time just to keep up. That's why I never did Naxxramas (T3) or Sunwell.

edit: actually in fairness I didn't do Naxxramas because I was in a guild full of dicks and Blizzard didn't want Paladins to be viable at anything except spamming rank 4 Holy Light


I blame Kaplan for that, both him and Afrasiabi hated paladins since their days in EQ. On the other hand, I give props to Afrasiabi for Nortrhend, as he was the lead world designer.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby halabar » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:53 pm

Aanar wrote:
Kelaan wrote:Despite many of you having valid criticisms, this is one of my most enjoyable patches.


Oh yeah, my favorite too. 4.3 seems like what 4.0 and 4.2 should have been. The complete opposite philosophy between them has left me with some kind of whiplash.

As a side note, I don't really understand why they blow ~10 dungeons at the start of an expansion and then only give 0-3 at each major patch rather than space them out better. Like 5 for each major patch would be a lot better.


Yeah, 4.3 has a serious lack of content. DS needs 8 more bosses. That world event in May better be mind-blowing. Then again, might have betapandaclysym by then, so might not care.
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