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Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Mannstein » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:34 am

Levantine wrote:Like I said, I'm trying really hard to hold my judgement of the new system until we get a pass through. It's just hard when they've given us this and expect us not to extrapolate things from it. I personally think they should have kept all of this to themselves until they had at least an idea of an alpha build. It's just uninspiring to me, and it's certainly not doing anything good for my anticipation of the expansion.

I like the current system, i would like the "impossible" all talents are unique and fun... but to think that i'll be leveling till 90 and i can go thru 5 lvl's without nothing new... it's just mindnumbing...
I think it's all a "mind game", if they want to make people "hype" about this then they should make sure that there are some things people want:
A) Want to go for the 6levels talents? Make sure EVERY class have a 1-2-3 new "AWESOME" abilities... That way the number of "That is soo cool" would prevent to much negative feedback...
B) Put back the diferent lvl of spell, no need to make it different of now, just make it visible again... so when you get to lvl18 you get Holy Light rank 2. (you can only cast the most high lvl spell) Just so every lvl you go from 1-90 has a new thingy.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Archeth » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:00 am

B wouldn't make any sense after they got rid of it and replaced it with scaling spells, just so people could feel better for the few hours they otherwise have to wait for a regular new spell or talent/perk/whatever you wanna call it. Discrete spell ranks had other implications and if they want to work around them, it essentially leads to misleading the player by acting no different than scaling spells. You can always pretend you get a full spellbook of updates every new level, without Blizzard having to show you a popup though.

A was also addressed, as long as the level cap keeps rising there just is no room for many new "awesome" abilities for each class unless they go and rename/replace existing abilities for the hell of it.

They can always redistrubute existing abilities again, though, giving you current level 85 skills at level 87 or whatever, but no matter what they do some people are going to be unhappy. But bloating the spellbook for the sake of having more abilities to give out, if the only point is to make players feel better in that temporary phase that is levelling (which will probably be faster yet again so time from 1 to cap stays roughly the same), doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby poptart » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:30 am

Mannstein wrote:Just so every lvl you go from 1-90 has a new thingy.


I am leveling a Prot Warrior right now only through tanking instances and I have to tell you that this is something that is greatly lacking with today's model.

With full xp heirlooms and rested XP, I don't even notice when I level up and will look at my character sheet and say "wow, I am level 37 already? I just dingged level 30...."

And then I go to the trainer and realize that I failed to learn 3 new abilities in that time but I never missed them.

The leveling experience is just way, way so uncompetative now that getting new things every level just really does not matter. I daresay that I could be tanking only with Shield Slam, Thunderclap and Rend and hold aggro on 99% of the leveling DPS out there.

While it is fun to think about getting a new shiny every level, it really does not matter to more than probably 10% of the player base out there that is leveling their first or second toon.

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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Mannstein » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:40 am

poptart wrote:
Mannstein wrote:Just so every lvl you go from 1-90 has a new thingy.


I am leveling a Prot Warrior right now only through tanking instances and I have to tell you that this is something that is greatly lacking with today's model.

With full xp heirlooms and rested XP, I don't even notice when I level up and will look at my character sheet and say "wow, I am level 37 already? I just dingged level 30...."

Poptart

Exactly, why do i go thru 90lvl... if i could just skip 80 of them?
Or why do i go from* 30-31-32-33-etc. if i gain a ability on 30 and another at 40? (example)
Do i get more int? more stg? Does it mean something?... to be honest i dread a time someone roll an alt and at level x, looks at his char and thinks: "Hey now more 8lvl to gain anything..."...

Ofc this is my opinion, some guys like leveling and don't even notice wich lvl they are... right?
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:06 am

People probably need to be steered away from that kind of thinking and back to the fact that gaining a level, and the associated increase in power, is in itself the reward for the effort you put in levelling. We shouldn't be in a position where we treat gaining a level as meaningless unless we get something else alongside it; that's just a result of being spoiled for so long by Blizzard's rank system meaning there were dozens of skills to learn (talents less so, as before Cataclysm "gain a talent point" and "gain a level" were the same thing).

Cataclysm is the blip here, as far as power while levelling goes: Pre-Cata, the talent point was just part of the power gain as you levelled (except where it supplemented the skill gain system, which was only a mechanism to differentiate specs before Cataclysm split the specs up definitively). In MoP, we just gain power as we level. Cataclysm's talent-every-other-level-(most-of-the-time) was an odd compromise that never felt right.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Carabas » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:50 am

I am very disappointed from GC answers. From a paladin perspective, there are no choices at all. A pve Protection or Retribution paladin is going to look pretty much the same
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby mavfin » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:53 am

KysenMurrin wrote:People probably need to be steered away from that kind of thinking and back to the fact that gaining a level, and the associated increase in power, is in itself the reward for the effort you put in levelling. We shouldn't be in a position where we treat gaining a level as meaningless unless we get something else alongside it; that's just a result of being spoiled for so long by Blizzard's rank system meaning there were dozens of skills to learn (talents less so, as before Cataclysm "gain a talent point" and "gain a level" were the same thing).

Cataclysm is the blip here, as far as power while levelling goes: Pre-Cata, the talent point was just part of the power gain as you levelled (except where it supplemented the skill gain system, which was only a mechanism to differentiate specs before Cataclysm split the specs up definitively). In MoP, we just gain power as we level. Cataclysm's talent-every-other-level-(most-of-the-time) was an odd compromise that never felt right.


Exactly. In Vanilla/BC/Wrath, you had ranks to train every level or two, but, a level-up was just that. A level, nothing more. Your abilities didn't get better unless you got a new rank to train. In Cata, the level-up IS a boost to your abilities. If you're in heirlooms, it's even more of a boost.

I like the new system. Less having to check if someone talented properly, as the spec does most of the work. Also, I like that priests, for example, are not as homogenous over the three specs as they were before. I think it'll be fine. And no, the old system *didn't* have choices. You either did the cookie cutter, or you weren't efficient.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Flex » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:02 am

Carabas wrote:I am very disappointed from GC answers. From a paladin perspective, there are no choices at all. A pve Protection or Retribution paladin is going to look pretty much the same


Disagree.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Carabas » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:35 am

Flex wrote:
Carabas wrote:I am very disappointed from GC answers. From a paladin perspective, there are no choices at all. A pve Protection or Retribution paladin is going to look pretty much the same


Disagree.


Let's try to see which choices we're going to have. Of course we don't know how a raid fight is going to be, so is mere speculation:

Lvl15: Pursuit of Justice seems to be the easiest choice, while Speed of Light and Long Arm of The Law are fight dependant. Probably a tank is going for Pursuit while retri can do better with another choice.

Lvl30: pvp talent or trash talent, see you @lvl45.

Lvl45: Tank choice is Ardent Defender, Retri can choose according to the fight, but in the end any choice seems ok.

Lvl60: Eternal Glory or Holy shield if you're a tank (I'd choose w/o thinkng Holy shield, but in some fights, maybe EG is ok). Retribution: pick any of the two and skip to lvl75.

Lvl75: very fight dependant, I suppose every spec will choose the same talent for every fight, but I can be wrong.

Lvl90: maybe you can choose a talent according to your playstile!

Sorry, but imho this means no choice at all.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Flex » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:42 am

Carabas wrote:Let's try to see which choices we're going to have. Of course we don't know how a raid fight is going to be, so is mere speculation:

...

Sorry, but imho this means no choice at all.


Your level 30 summation makes me sad since I don't see any of those options as PvP or trash but see them all as potentially very desirable abilities to have. So I'll just say I disagree with you and leave it at that.

Talents are also not the total of the specs' "look."
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:50 am

Carabas wrote:Let's try to see which choices we're going to have. Of course we don't know how a raid fight is going to be, so is mere speculation:

Lvl15: Pursuit of Justice seems to be the easiest choice, while Speed of Light and Long Arm of The Law are fight dependant. Probably a tank is going for Pursuit while retri can do better with another choice.

Those are all very situational. Some might like to have the sprint after judgement for closing in on something from ranged like add spawns (and Speed of Light is even better for it when it's not a frequent occurence), for example. It'll be down to preference and encounter, but yes, Pursuit is the more general-purpose one.

Lvl45: Tank choice is Ardent Defender, Retri can choose according to the fight, but in the end any choice seems ok.

Numbers needed to know, but some people will prefer a passive 20% healing buff when they need it most to an active button that requries more thought and planning. There was a big debate here on passive versus active for both Ardent Defender and Holy Shield when those were changed, not so clear cut. Blessed Life is useless for PvE tanks, though.

Lvl60: Eternal Glory or Holy shield if you're a tank (I'd choose w/o thinkng Holy shield, but in some fights, maybe EG is ok). Retribution: pick any of the two and skip to lvl75.

Yeah, those two will depend on numbers and just personal preference. Random proc that lets you double heal, or an extra option to use Holy Power on. Worth noting that EG lets you use WoG more often, while HS only replaces WoG casts. That's a good choice they've created there.

Lvl75: very fight dependant, I suppose every spec will choose the same talent for every fight, but I can be wrong.

Yeah, this one's totally situational.

Lvl90: maybe you can choose a talent according to your playstile!

Choice of improved cooldowns versus random chance of more Holy Power abilities. Very situation dependant for tanks. Sustained damage taken over time option would be the random proc, the others are controlled. Note how Sanctified Wrath has synergy with Word of Glory self-healing.

I'd say tier 15, 75, and 90 will be swapped around by fight and preference, tier 30 isn't very interesting for PvE (but still has uses on a situational basis), and tier 45 and 60 are interesting choices for playstyle.

I don't know what more you were expecting from the choices in these new trees.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Carabas » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:20 pm

I am expecting real choices if a developer says: You will have fewer choices. But you will have more choices that *matter*. If there are only 6 points, every point need to matter, not only 1 or 2. You can run both as protection or as retribution with the same set of talents and be ok (and imho this is wrong from a game design point of view).
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Tev » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:56 pm

My concern is they will end up lacking foresight in some of the talents, where 1 person having a talent isn't bad, but 7 pallies in the raid with that same talent completely unbalances the encounter. Hopefully these will come out in beta, but you never know.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Kelaan » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:04 pm

Carabas wrote:If there are only 6 points, every point need to matter, not only 1 or 2. You can run both as protection or as retribution with the same set of talents and be ok (and imho this is wrong from a game design point of view).


Recall that DPS and tanks will likely want different things. A tank wants survivability, and may want to generate holy power in a different way than ret does. You COULD choose the same thing (e.g. PoJ) but I could totally see a situation where a tank would prefer to have the increased mobility from 3HP saved up for something, and want something different based BOTH on their role and on the encounter (or party).

Sure, some of the talents are pvp-oriented. But at almost every tier I can think of use cases for each of the talent options, and am having to decide which I prefer. Often I can't -- e.g. the top tier ones, none of them really seem to satisfy me, and I'm STILL unsure about PoJ vs sprint-with-holy-power, since I have to spend that holy power to do damage. Similarly, even in PvP I can see the benefit of both Repentance and judgement-snare, for example -- and the same applies in PvE. Many things will be fight specific, but many choices can reflect the friends you normally play with, and what snares/etc they bring to the table.

I certainly feel like all of the tiers have meaningful choices, from both perspectives. Here are the choices I see. I am mainly looking at a pve and pvp tank/dps perspective; Holy has a lot of choices too.

  • (15) 1 minute sprint CD, vs a much more frequent 40% (PoJ), vs judgement giving a shorter duration sprint every ten seconds. PoJ is neat in that it potentially would let you keep the movement speed all the time, whereas judgement synergizes VERY well (in PvP and PvE) with snaring runners.
  • (30) Judgement snare, vs 30 second stun, vs Repentance. Note that Repentance has a cast time, and APPEARS not to have a cooldown. I don't even know which I'd rather have in PvP -- sheep-games, or permanent snares? Stunning adds helps a lot as a tank, but so does being able to apply CC.
  • (45) Ardent Defender is on-use bacon-saving, whereas Sacred Shield is a more frequent bacon-saver. I think I'd rather have Sacred Shield in most cases, but I've used Ardent Defender for some pretty silly boss-survival shenanigans too. I honestly don't know which I'd prefer, and I can see some being better for different fights.
  • (60) Eternal Glory vs Holy Shield? Especially pertinent now that ShoR makes us block the next attack, so you are choosing a shield vs a chance at a heal+block combo. Selfless Healer looks like an AWESOME pvp talent, too, in that it makes ret (or prot) much more capable of healing teammates.
  • (75) I really want cleanse to remove snares. I'm just happy that more than Ret gets it. ;) However, I can certainly see the situational value of Veneration for a tank or as part of an arena team. I think they'll pry Acts of Sacrifice from my cold, dead, hands, but I can also see how some would prefer to be able to double up on Hands of Whatever. These mostly seem like PvP talent choices, but we've had SEVERAL boss fights (Keristrasza, Hodir, etc) where I'd LOVE to be able to cleanse my own snare away, and I expect to see more.
  • (90) WTF. I have no idea which I'd prefer. One lets you block five things in a row (or hit things hard) while running Guardian, which COULD be pretty awesome as a clutch CD, esp if we are not able to block cap. The others let you guarantee fast HP buildup or throughout, or have a chance at free HP usage like Ret gets now. As a tank, I like Holy Avenger, but it seems liek Divine Purpose is more generally useful. Sanctified wrath ... I guess. Not for tanks, but the others are still choices?

I am betting that Mists will have many more fights with runners (so you want a snare), things that snare you, and other things which will make these compelling choices in more situations than they are now. As Ghostcrawler said, we don't see as many "Patchwerk" fights, so almost everything involves adds or other Interesting Things.

I see similar choices from many of the other classes' talents. (Granted, not Shamans. ;)) I can look at them and find that one of them appeals to my playstyle choices, rather than role requirements, and also see the conditional value in many of them.

The other thing I am really loving about the new talents is that I can change PvE vs PvP-ness easily, and still maintain ret + prot builds. I can change either one into a dogged pursuer who can't be easily snared, or can make them PvE-focused easily. I really like that, as right now I find it really frustrating to have to choose between PvE-ret and PvP-Prot (or Ret) due to the substantial throughput-related and toolbox-related differences in the specs.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:08 pm

Kelaan wrote: judgement giving a shorter duration sprint every ten seconds.


Every 6 seconds. Judgement has a 6 second cooldown. I feel like LAotL is just way better than the other two.
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