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LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby fafhrd » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:38 pm

melisandyr wrote:I don't think the sports analogy works. Because in sports you have a well defined set of rules that everyone knows how they work, and if someone tries to bend them, they are enforced by an umpire.


I think it works fine, because while rules exist, every possible way to sneak in an advantage while obeying the letter of the rules is explored and exploited ruthlessly. Look at F1 racing shenanigans over how cars can be designed, or ski-jumping rules about weight-classes (unhealthy in the extreme, but people still do things like starving for days to control weight), or pretty much any sport where the professional athletes take every possible performance enhancing supplement and drug that isn't actually banned.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby twinkfist » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:41 pm

couple things.

first i thought i was on an eagles message board because the members have started turning on each other.

secondly...as a person who has never been in a top guild or anything such as that...i look at it as blizz got caught with their pants down on this one. people try to get ahead all the time...sometimes the rules are bent or broken, but it happens. it's not like they were killing kittens to get ahead or stay within striking distance....or were they.....hhhhhhmmmm......
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Steve » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:41 pm

There are written and unwritten rules in sports. Bunting while being down by 10 runs in a game in which the opposing pitcher is throwing a no-hitter is allowed by the rules of baseball, but will do damage to your reputation among other players in the game, for example. Sports analogies are hard amongst a world audience for us 'mericuns, since you guys probably don't even know what a bunt or no-hitter is, and I don't know enough about soccer (or, heaven forbid, cricket) to make a better one!

Here's the basic problem. Fame doesn't operate by the rules of reason and logic. Fame exists completely at the perceptual whims of the audience. Once you get yourself involved in the game of actually caring about fame (and, by consequence, what other people think) you play by those arbitrary rules. The same arbitrary rules that grant you access to the perks are ultimately the same ones that will impose negative consequences.

It's like celebrities complaining about the tabloids. The tabloids exist for the same reason the actors get paid $5 million a film. Don't like it? Stop cashing the checks and work on Broadway. You get to act and the tabloids will leave you alone. You just won't get paid $5 million for 12 weeks of work.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Milius » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:43 pm

Treck wrote:
Well, this is obviously not helping my case, but we noticed the bug once, then tried to replicate the results.
When we realised it could be done, we started looking around if others did it or not, then found out that others did.
Ive said it many times, and every time people have the same counter argument, "just cuz they did it doesnt make it right".
I cant really say much else, but in this kind of competition, what everyone else does, matters a lot, you constantly check what your competition is doing, and if you feel they are ahead of you, you try to do what they are doing to try to catch up.


Of course, I can understand the reasoning behind it (even if I do think it's a weak excuse). Competition is competition at the end of the day.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Treck » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:46 pm

Skye1013 wrote: That being said... the guild broke up (from what I remember mostly because of this) thereby disproving your "all publicity is good publicity." If that were true, it shouldn't have caused the disbanding of a guild.

Well, its just a saying, maybe not always true, but in lots of cases it is.


melisandyr wrote:I don't think the sports analogy works. Because in sports you have a well defined set of rules that everyone knows how they work, and if someone tries to bend them, they are enforced by an umpire.

Altho, in football, if the judge didnt see what happened, it officially never happened.

melisandyr wrote:Same for an interview for a top job, application for university, or a hard university test. The rules are well defined, and you have to excel within them to succeed at the task or gain your place. If you broke the rules, you and everyone else would expect you to be disqualified.

The point is that we figured the chances for them actually disqualify the top 10 guilds from the race were small enough to take the risk, besides if everyone is disqualified, i dont really care.

melisandyr wrote:Apparently in gaming, it's all about beating "the man" - it's not your own fault if you break the rules of the system, it's the person/people who designed it, whose fault it is for not being as intelligent as you are for spotting the flaw in the system. And once one person has done it, by extension you can claim moral legitimacy to repeat the same task - because "the man" deserves to be punished for his failures.

Fascinating insight into the mindset of the internet, and how it changes the boundaries of our social norms.

While i personally wouldnt agree fully, i cant disagree eather. Its a good post.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Milius » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:50 pm

Treck wrote:The point is that we figured the chances for them actually disqualify the top 10 guilds from the race were small enough to take the risk, besides if everyone is disqualified, i dont really care.


i'd like to point out though,

Vodka and Inner Sanctum 5th and 6th for last tier respectively) didn't abuse the bug. Not all of the top 10 guilds did use it, looks more like the top 2 and then ensidia.

Edit : Envy I don't think did it either. But haven't had comfirmation from their members. Vodka / Inner Sanctum have posted in that MMO champ thread (lol reliability but still).
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Treck » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:59 pm

Klaudandus wrote:I don't think we're arguing out of sheer jealousy. If anything, we're sounding off our disappointment at someone trying to excuse their behavior, and the inherent hypocrisy having them lambasted STARS in the past for also using an exploit to get an edge. (Though to be honest, STARS did deserve to be derided for trying to exploit)

Altho, who brought up STARS?
Sure people were frustrated when it was current, but then progress started, and ended, and none cared, people didnt forget, but people didnt think it had anything to do with anything.

In any other competition, theres judges/referees to have a final decision on if something is allowed or not.
Blizzard are our referees.
We try to do our shit, and see if its allowed or not.
Sometimes it passes, sometimes it doesnt.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Treck » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:03 pm

Milius wrote:Vodka and Inner Sanctum 5th and 6th for last tier respectively) didn't abuse the bug. Not all of the top 10 guilds did use it, looks more like the top 2 and then ensidia.

Edit : Envy I don't think did it either. But haven't had comfirmation from their members. Vodka / Inner Sanctum have posted in that MMO champ thread (lol reliability but still).

Envy did.
I think vodka and Inner sanctum didnt tho.
Problem is, that now that its fixed, can you actually find out if they didnt do it cuz they didnt figure it out? or if they figured it out, but choose not to use it.
I dont know it one way or another, but im also not trusting whatever they say completely.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Darielle » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:09 pm

FWIW, the fact that it's unlikely that Blizzard would ban all the "top guilds" that took part in this is basically the same reason Blizzard should take action. The door to "It's unlikely they would ban us" is already open, leaving it open could degenerate things pretty quickly in the long run.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Lieris » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:14 pm

It's difficult for me to take the "race" seriously when so many end raid bosses have been exploited. I don't know why anyone not directly involved even cares. If people want to skip Vashj phase 2, stop reflections spawning on Kiljaeden, evade bugging P3 adds on Yogg Saron, chain stunning Anubarak adds with paladins, saronite bombs on LK, feral druids on Nefarian, orb cheesing on Sinestra and so on (I am sure there are a bunch of others) all in the pursuit of being "first" that's their call. Deep down I hope they realise that it was a hollow victory because the guilds that come after them end up killing it properly.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Treck » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:19 pm

Maybe, but i still dont see it happening.
And while it is unfair of some top guilds using it to gain an advantage together, the people who really lost on this deal are the top guilds who didnt use this exploit.
Thats the main problem with hotfixing controversial stuff like this.
Eather you have it available for everyone, so that everyone can do the same, or you make sure those involved doesnt stand to benefit from it.
A more "fair" solution would be to leave it be as it is now for a day or two more (now that it is widely known) so everyone can get all the gear they care farming.
It reminds me a lot of when paragon killed nefarian, we didnt care that they "exploited" a game mechanic that was completely broken, all we cared about was replicating their results, but they "fixed" it, so we couldnt.
Now "we" farmed lots more gear than we should have, and those who didnt figure out the bug are left behind.

Altho leaving it open for a few more days would mean everyone getting all the gear from LFR asap meaning none would run there anymore.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Arincia » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:23 pm

The way i see it these same people will be back in full tier next week with all of LFR unlocked taking a few mains at a time with alts to gear them up completely (should get 2-5 full 4 set bonus per run). It will take maybe 1-1.5 hours top to get 3-5 people per run the entire set (first 6 bosses only if they don't want DW drops).

In my eyes all a gear strip is at this point is just a one week delay on 4 piece set bonus. They will still get themselves fully decked out with them and blizz can't stop them from using intended game mechanics in LFR from doing it.

I honestly blame blizzard for not acting sooner on this once reported and allowing it. But farming lfr for raid members should have been obvious to everyone once LFR and how it worked was announced. Given a few weeks/months no one will care about it anymore then anything else done so far.

The fact is even if the exploit didn't exists these same groups would have farmed up a full 384 set for all their raiders and back ups by next week with a full LFR opened up. Them getting it after the main raid day(s) for them will barely set them back at all. (1 week if that to refarm it all back up for everyone again)

Guess what they took a risk/gamble it didn't work blizzard is punishing them there is very little to rub our noses in their faces about being morally better. They knew what they were doing and what could happen so now they are paying for it. So lets just be adults about it and move on.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:24 pm

Treck wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:I don't think we're arguing out of sheer jealousy. If anything, we're sounding off our disappointment at someone trying to excuse their behavior, and the inherent hypocrisy having them lambasted STARS in the past for also using an exploit to get an edge. (Though to be honest, STARS did deserve to be derided for trying to exploit)

Altho, who brought up STARS?
Sure people were frustrated when it was current, but then progress started, and ended, and none cared, people didnt forget, but people didnt think it had anything to do with anything.

In any other competition, theres judges/referees to have a final decision on if something is allowed or not.
Blizzard are our referees.
We try to do our shit, and see if its allowed or not.
Sometimes it passes, sometimes it doesnt.



The problem is that the referee told you the rules before the game/race started

Q. How does loot distribution work?
A. All Raid Finder groups determine loot distribution using the “Need Before Greed” system. Unlike Dungeon Finder, players who are identified as rolling need on an item that fits their primary role will be given loot priority over those who play a different role. You can read more about item distribution and loot roll rules here. While Raid Finder raids aren’t locked, players are only eligible to win loot from a boss once per week.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/4023602


You saw that there was a glitch on it and exploited it knowingly, when Blizzard had said that it anything other than that was not kosher
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Treck » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:28 pm

Lieris wrote:It's difficult for me to take the "race" seriously when so many end raid bosses have been exploited. I don't know why anyone not directly involved even cares. If people want to skip Vashj phase 2, stop reflections spawning on Kiljaeden, evade bugging P3 adds on Yogg Saron, chain stunning Anubarak adds with paladins, saronite bombs on LK, feral druids on Nefarian, orb cheesing on Sinestra and so on (I am sure there are a bunch of others) all in the pursuit of being "first" that's their call. Deep down I hope they realise that it was a hollow victory because the guilds that come after them end up killing it properly.

Sadly, it is the people who are "first" who are remembered, unless blizzards removes their kill, cheat or no cheat, they remain number one.
When your in the top race, and you ever hear someone letting you know another guild killed the boss world first, you cant help but to hope they exploited it to make your kill more significant.
And while yes, paragon does have a bit of a bad reputation of using "clever game mechanics" theres a vast VAST majority of people who simply consider them to be the best of the best, completely eather ignoring their "exploitish" nature on some kills, or just never even heard about it.
Fact is, we have done both T11 and T12 more or less perfectly, ending up second for a whole year with only Atramedes and Magmaw (depends on how YOU want to perceive those kills) beeing shady.
But, maybe one tenth of the population who know who paragon are, knows who we are.
More people know who nihilum/ensidia are than who knows us to be honest.
So, judging by past experience, whats best for us? keeping a clean reputation, or ending up first?
Id say first place has a LOT more to offer.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Treck » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:31 pm

Klaudandus wrote:You saw that there was a glitch on it and exploited it knowingly, when Blizzard had said that it anything other than that was not kosher

And now its up to the referees to decide how they should act.
If they slide it under the rug, so will everyone else.
If they make it a big deal, its going to be a big deal, nomatter what, im prepared.
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