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LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Milius » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:06 pm

Changing to a different faction to reset the lockout on a raid so you can start Hard Modes is a unintended use of game mechanics.

Abusing a system where you are only supposed to be able to get loot from once per week to get 4 set for everyone in your guild is an unintended use of game mechanics.

thats whats the same between them?

edit: for the record as well. Using saronite bombs to rebuild the Lich King's platform is another unintended use of game mechanics.
Last edited by Milius on Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby fafhrd » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:06 pm

PsiVen wrote:By the way, you guys can stop flaming each other now. I'm sure this is a heated issue, but just take a deep breath...


I'm still nearly speechless from the above assertion that fluttershy is the best pony.

Dash > all
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Malthrax » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:09 pm

Teranoid wrote:Just another nod to the idea that this community has basically turned to complete shit.

This place started going downhill rapidly after Blizzard made tanking require less mental effort than crapping. With nothing else for the forum denizens here to focus on, they've started to turn on themselves.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Treck » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:11 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:The first Lich King kill controlled access to heroic mode, does that not make it important?

The boss wasnt very hard for top guilds, they could have no doubt killed it without the exploit, but yes, its not completely unimportant.

Klaudandus wrote:Image

Were you aware of this bug since the PTR, yes or no?

No.
Like i said before, we discovered this purely by chance.
After running 15 runs replacing 2-3 players per run so that they were the only people to get any usefull loot, someone DCd after a fight, and could suddenly go out and loot the bosses again, we quickly figured out what caused this.

And i salute you sir Senador.

And Mr Steve, im from <Method> Pleased to meet you.

Now, im not here to cause drama, im here to try to clarify things.
I really like this community, and i value it greatly.
This have been spreading like mad over the internet the past few hours, and i figured you guys deserve to hear our PoV, and not only what randoms are saying on MMO-champ (id like to follow what people say there, but theres to many trolls, not to mention Maintankadin has kept me busy for the past 2hours doing nothing but writing posts and checking stuff every here and there.

If you feel were immoral asshats who abused the system, do look down on us if you feel you still wanna give us that time of your life, but all im saying is dont forget the others who did the exact same thing for the exact same reason.
Even haters help promote people, look at athene (a really nice and awesome guy irl who i met at dreamhack) who has basicly made a living out of beeing a troll pretty much everyone has hated at some point.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby mavfin » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:11 pm

Steve wrote:but now every time your guild gets a world first -- EVERY SINGLE TIME -- someone is going to mention this incident and automatically think you exploited.


Fixed that for you. Any time Paragon, Treck's guild, or any of the big name guilds involved in this thing gets a world first, I'll be wondering what exploit they used to get there. So, any world first they get will not be legit in my eyes. I realize that doesn't mean anything, but it does pretty much shoot their credibility in the ass that they're better than anyone. They're perfectly willing to cheat to get what they want, and the best excuse they can come up with is "But everyone else is doing it!" Really?

BTW, For once, I'm with Shoju. It's a Lurker thing. You don't cheat. Ever. If you want to cheat, go play single player. And yes, exploiting this bug was clearly cheating.

Edit: And Treck, I'm not singling you out as worse than any of the rest of them, but, to me, all who knowingly cheat are the same. It's not personal toward you.
Last edited by mavfin on Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:15 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Lieris » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:12 pm

fafhrd wrote:
PsiVen wrote:By the way, you guys can stop flaming each other now. I'm sure this is a heated issue, but just take a deep breath...


I'm still nearly speechless from the above assertion that fluttershy is the best pony.

Dash > all


*clicks on 'Report this post' button*
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Milius » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:16 pm

Treck wrote:Now, im not here to cause drama, im here to try to clarify things.
I really like this community, and i value it greatly.
This have been spreading like mad over the internet the past few hours, and i figured you guys deserve to hear our PoV, and not only what randoms are saying on MMO-champ (id like to follow what people say there, but theres to many trolls, not to mention Maintankadin has kept me busy for the past 2hours doing nothing but writing posts and checking stuff every here and there.

If you feel were immoral asshats who abused the system, do look down on us if you feel you still wanna give us that time of your life, but all im saying is dont forget the others who did the exact same thing for the exact same reason.
Even haters help promote people, look at athene (a really nice and awesome guy irl who i met at dreamhack) who has basicly made a living out of beeing a troll pretty much everyone has hated at some point.


Okay, well I see no reason to not believe that you discovered it by chance.

But my problem (Not just your guild but with everyone who used it) is that the people who realised they could do this...Kept doing it? Surely you guys are smart enough to realise it wasn't intended to be done, but for whatever reason continued to do it anyway?

"Others did it so why shouldn't we" is a bad excuse whatever context it's used, in any situation.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Zobel » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:19 pm

fafhrd wrote:
PsiVen wrote:By the way, you guys can stop flaming each other now. I'm sure this is a heated issue, but just take a deep breath...


I'm still nearly speechless from the above assertion that fluttershy is the best pony.

I'm still waiting for Treck to pee in a cup.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Treck » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:20 pm

Skye1013 wrote:
Treck wrote:Also, all publicity is good publicity.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHJVolaC8pw

And where are these guys now?

You obviously remember them, im obviously not justifying what they did, but most people have heard this story.
But are we hurting peoples feelings? all our fans are devastated?
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:24 pm

I remember what happened because I thought it was hilarious... and there wasn't any cheating involved, just bad taste. That being said... the guild broke up (from what I remember mostly because of this) thereby disproving your "all publicity is good publicity." If that were true, it shouldn't have caused the disbanding of a guild.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby melisandyr » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:25 pm

Both a fascinating and very sad insight into how gaming at the top level works.

I don't think the sports analogy works. Because in sports you have a well defined set of rules that everyone knows how they work, and if someone tries to bend them, they are enforced by an umpire.
Same for an interview for a top job, application for university, or a hard university test. The rules are well defined, and you have to excel within them to succeed at the task or gain your place. If you broke the rules, you and everyone else would expect you to be disqualified.

Apparently in gaming, it's all about beating "the man" - it's not your own fault if you break the rules of the system, it's the person/people who designed it, whose fault it is for not being as intelligent as you are for spotting the flaw in the system. And once one person has done it, by extension you can claim moral legitimacy to repeat the same task - because "the man" deserves to be punished for his failures.

Fascinating insight into the mindset of the internet, and how it changes the boundaries of our social norms.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby PsiVen » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:26 pm

Treck wrote:You obviously remember them, im obviously not justifying what they did, but most people have heard this story.
But are we hurting peoples feelings? all our fans are devastated?


Method's credibility is damaged by participating in this, yes. But if we're keeping score, so did Lady Vashj :P

Bottom line is that some people care about legitimacy, some people don't. It doesn't really affect the future unless you take the attitude that everything is fair game and get banned for finding something unique.


melisandyr wrote:Both a fascinating and very sad insight into how gaming at the top level works.

I don't think the sports analogy works. Because in sports you have a well defined set of rules that everyone knows how they work, and if someone tries to bend them, they are enforced by an umpire.
Same for an interview for a top job, application for university, or a hard university test. The rules are well defined, and you have to excel within them to succeed at the task or gain your place. If you broke the rules, you and everyone else would expect you to be disqualified.

Apparently in gaming, it's all about beating "the man" - it's not your own fault if you break the rules of the system, it's the person/people who designed it, whose fault it is for not being as intelligent as you are for spotting the flaw in the system. And once one person has done it, by extension you can claim moral legitimacy to repeat the same task - because "the man" deserves to be punished for his failures.

Fascinating insight into the mindset of the internet, and how it changes the boundaries of our social norms.


The sports analogy is quite apt, actually. Take a look at the early history of baseball, for example. When spitballs were allowed, it was major league standard for the pitcher to dirty up the ball as much as possible for an advantage.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby sahiel » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:32 pm

I think it's sad that people felt compelled to cheat rather than play fair, and a large part of that compulsion is no doubt down to Blizzards half hearted enforcement of 'rules' in the past. I can understand the thought processes that lead to the guilds deciding to exploit but I do think it's worth taking a long look at your morals if the argument "HE cheated so it's okay for us to cheat as well to stay on the same level" actually convinces you to do so.

Not anything to get terribly fussed over in the end imo, just yet another race spoiled before the end by less than stellar testing on Blizzards part and poor moral choices by many of the top guilds.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Treck » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:32 pm

Milius wrote:But my problem (Not just your guild but with everyone who used it) is that the people who realised they could do this...Kept doing it? Surely you guys are smart enough to realise it wasn't intended to be done, but for whatever reason continued to do it anyway?

"Others did it so why shouldn't we" is a bad excuse whatever context it's used, in any situation.

Well, this is obviously not helping my case, but we noticed the bug once, then tried to replicate the results.
When we realised it could be done, we started looking around if others did it or not, then found out that others did.
Ive said it many times, and every time people have the same counter argument, "just cuz they did it doesnt make it right".
I cant really say much else, but in this kind of competition, what everyone else does, matters a lot, you constantly check what your competition is doing, and if you feel they are ahead of you, you try to do what they are doing to try to catch up.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:37 pm

Teranoid wrote:[The sheer amount of jealousy and envy that runs through people that play this game is ridiculous and this thread is a prime example of it. Its almost disgusting how the needle flies from "Wow this guild is great they're #1 in every tier" to "they're a bunch of bullshit cheaters what a load of shit" . Half the people making these ridiculous statements have no idea of the mindset of a top 5 guild let alone how things are conducted outside of livestream raids. Hell I don't even know half of what it takes but I know enough to realize that everything is a race for these guilds. You take every advantage you can get whether its spending hours and hours on the PTR or what have you.


I don't think we're arguing out of sheer jealousy. If anything, we're sounding off our disappointment at someone trying to excuse their behavior, and the inherent hypocrisy having them lambasted STARS in the past for also using an exploit to get an edge. (Though to be honest, STARS did deserve to be derided for trying to exploit)

If you have ever read my posts, you'll realize I'm pretty happy playing with my own people, playing at a pace we're comfortable with... but I cannot stand such a blatant cop-out, simple as that.
Last edited by Klaudandus on Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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