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LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Teranoid » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:16 pm

Well to be fair the last 10-15 pages have literally been the same people saying the same things. The thread should have been locked days ago after everything basically degraded into assaulting everyone's morals or lack thereof in some people's opinion.

We get it. People cheated. People got banned. People lost respect for other people because of their opinions. Guess what? It happens. They're free to believe whatever they want. The downfall of this forum lately is that everyone is so quick to push everything they personally believe as fact and basically shove it in the face of anyone who has a differing opinion and then constantly prattle on about it. Have I lost respect for some people? Probably but then again I see this as a video game and nothing more.

Maybe I'm in the minority and that's fine. My problem is when you have people lecturing other grown adults like they're children because they don't agree with you.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Sagara » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:57 pm

Teranoid wrote:Well to be fair the last 10-15 pages have literally been the same people saying the same things. The thread should have been locked days ago after everything basically degraded into assaulting everyone's morals or lack thereof in some people's opinion.

We get it. People cheated. People got banned. People lost respect for other people because of their opinions. Guess what? It happens. They're free to believe whatever they want. The downfall of this forum lately is that everyone is so quick to push everything they personally believe as fact and basically shove it in the face of anyone who has a differing opinion and then constantly prattle on about it. Have I lost respect for some people? Probably but then again I see this as a video game and nothing more.

Maybe I'm in the minority and that's fine. My problem is when you have people lecturing other grown adults like they're children because they don't agree with you.


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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Barathorn » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:43 am

Klaudandus wrote:<-- My face when...

I just ran out of things to say, arguments are just being dismissed because
- Not in a top raiding guild
- Integrity has no place in a competition
- Top Guilds are special
- It's Blizzard's fault
- Blizzard has no place in judging this
- Aliens

Roll the dice and pick one. Only thing left for me is to give up and facepalm my way out of the debate. The last bit about the RNG just blew my mind out.


See I understand your points Klaus even if you have made them over and over again :wink: . I don't happen to agree with them but I do understand them and why you feel the way you do. I also completely understand where Mav and Shoju are coming from as parents who want to set the right example. I agree with them about setting the example but I personally don't believe that you have to be a parent to feel that way.

This next bit may upset some people but I am purely saying it from my own experiances [not from WoW I should add] as I think people are tiptoeing around each other when we should have all just been honest with each other 20 pages ago like treck has been all the way through this thread.

I will repeat myself again so my stance is clear, all said and done and with everything considered if I was placed in exactly the same position as treck I would most likely do exactly the same thing. That would be my choice.

You may think OMG Barathorn is a cheater which is your right to do but in honesty I don't care how you judge me because at the end of the day I base everything upon my progression and not what others think of me. That doesn't mean I don't understand your viewpoint but it does mean your viewpoint is when all things are considered, simply not relevant to the way I play the game. Sorry but that is the fact of how it is.

That doesn't make me elitist. It makes me focused on where I need to be. I understand people may look at what I do and judge me but that doesn't affect the way I will act. I will do what I need to do to ensure the advantage stays with the group of people I play with.

Flame all you want, those are the cold hard facts of playing in a top level guild or at the top level of competition in most genre's. You have to make hard choices [which involve exploiting sometimes] which you don't at lower levels of competition. Sometimes you make a wrong choice and you get punished for it. That is simply how it is, you push boundaries for any advantage you can get. I don't think that is right, but it is just how it is.

I don't like cheaters, but I understand why they do it.

Now we have that out of the way can we go back to giving a shit about each other or shall we continue to argue about pixels and crap that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things?

Lots of love.

Bara.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby degre » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:42 am

Brekkie wrote:Well, I WAS enjoying the discussion because of the implications regarding separation of the virtual world from real society, and the moral ambiguity resulting, but it seems like too many people are too narrow-minded to actually talk about that.

So whatever. I have no stake in things either way, and I'm not gonna sit here and have memes spammed at me because I have a different perspective on morality that you, so I'm out. Have fun being self-righteous about a video game.

Now, apart from the insulting statement in the end where you claim that anyone not interested in discussing your point is narrow minded, there are people that are not interested in discussing it for the simple reason that view it as an illusion, people think that on the web they are different, they can do what they want, it's not true. Internet it's a mirror of the real world, if online you have different values then what you could have off, well, I think you have issues with what you consider values.


Oh, and I find amusing that every time I pointed out how this cheating is different from other cases brought as excuse, nobody ever bothered replying.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby lythac » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:16 am

Have been figuring how to write this the last few days.

I am guessing a lot of people in this thread blasting the cheaters cheated their way into Heroic 5 mans early (on their main don't care about alts) under average ilvl 329 by holding onto irrelevant gear (cloth/mail etc), cheating the system, leading to gear faster, Valor points faster and better tier 11 progression.

It is no where near as significant as the LFR exploit as it would not have changed world firsts for Tier 11 content, but it would have affected progression in the lower raiding bracket. Whilst Treckie's race is only against Paragon my guild's "race" at the time was getting as high up on the world ranking as we could, against people who had exploited their way to gear

Now I had the choice to either cheat along with everyone else, invest more time to get 329 via running normals for 333 gear or go do Heroics in a 5 man guild group (without using RDF) forsaking valor till all of us could sign via RDF. So I exploited the poor way RDF checks your gear and went in with under 329 to keep up with what was my guilds competition.

How many people did not cheat their way into RDF? Everyone else was doing it, must be fine :p
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:44 am

Barathorn wrote:I don't like cheaters, but I understand why they do it.

Now we have that out of the way can we go back to giving a shit about each other or shall we continue to argue about pixels and crap that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things?

Lots of love.

Bara.


You know what? I mostly agree everything you said ('cept having to cheat), and understand all the reasons (even if I don't agree with one of the points); one of my beefs was the argument that spectators had no right to call the competitors cheaters, that only the competitors had that right. I can tell I'm not the only one that got incensed at that; not saying you were the one that said that.

I really need to stop checking this thread, or I'll lose my cool again.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby poptart » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:59 am

This thread has been a wonderful insight into the world of relative morality.

Thanks all for participating. I mean that honestly. It has been a great read.

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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Mannstein » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:03 am

Barathorn wrote:

(...)if I was placed in exactly the same position as treck I would most likely do exactly the same thing. That would be my choice.
(...)
You may think OMG Barathorn is a cheater which is your right to do but in honesty I don't care how you judge me because at the end of the day I base everything upon my progression and not what others think of me.
(...)
I will do what I need to do to ensure the advantage stays with the group of people I play with.
(...)
Sometimes you make a wrong choice and you get punished for it. That is simply how it is, you push boundaries for any advantage you can get. I don't think that is right, but it is just how it is.
(...)
I don't like cheaters, but I understand why they do it.
Bara.

So if I understand correctly, you don't like yourself?
I understand you don't care what others think of yourself but... what about you think of yourself?

See, from my PoV the flaming on the last 20pages are nothing more then 3/4 persons trying to justify to themselves and others that they are correct in doing their "best" to progress and that what they did was not cheating... Well guys, cutting the flying crap around here, here is a newsflash, you cheated and that is immoral.
And the sad thing is you had to cheat on a thing it's important to you and a thing that you want to do it, pixilized or not.
I will just quote a great movie (/cough):

"But it ain't how hard you hit; it's about how hard you can get hit, and keep moving forward. How much you can take, and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done. Now, if you know what you're worth, then go out and get what you're worth. But you gotta be willing to take the hit, and not pointing fingers saying you ain't where you are because of him, or her, or anybody."- Rocky

=> You picked the "morally wrong" choice, you cheated and were caught, don't come here crying "it's progress", "it's acceptable", "they did it first" or "it's Blizzard fault".
Accept it like a Men (or Woman), and acknowledge that some so-called "lesser" guilds were superior and chose the RIGHT path. And GZ to them and their World-First.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Pruke » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:33 am

All that needs to be said has been said... can we just lock this topic and move on to other things?

Instead of playing out a reality show with words for another 43+ pages...

Come one mods, this is not healthy for the site anymore.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Barathorn » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:07 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Barathorn wrote:Lots of love.

Bara.


You know what? I mostly agree everything you said ('cept having to cheat), and understand all the reasons (even if I don't agree with one of the points); one of my beefs was the argument that spectators had no right to call the competitors cheaters, that only the competitors had that right. I can tell I'm not the only one that got incensed at that; not saying you were the one that said that.

I really need to stop checking this thread, or I'll lose my cool again.



Beans in the fridge my friend, it really isn't worth worrying about it. Everyone has different opinions and everyone is entitled to them.

Mannstein wrote:So if I understand correctly, you don't like yourself?
I understand you don't care what others think of yourself but... what about you think of yourself?

See, from my PoV the flaming on the last 20pages are nothing more then 3/4 persons trying to justify to themselves and others that they are correct in doing their "best" to progress and that what they did was not cheating... Well guys, cutting the flying crap around here, here is a newsflash, you cheated and that is immoral.
And the sad thing is you had to cheat on a thing it's important to you and a thing that you want to do it, pixilized or not.
I will just quote a great movie (/cough):

"But it ain't how hard you hit; it's about how hard you can get hit, and keep moving forward. How much you can take, and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done. Now, if you know what you're worth, then go out and get what you're worth. But you gotta be willing to take the hit, and not pointing fingers saying you ain't where you are because of him, or her, or anybody."- Rocky

=> You picked the "morally wrong" choice, you cheated and were caught, don't come here crying "it's progress", "it's acceptable", "they did it first" or "it's Blizzard fault".
Accept it like a Men (or Woman), and acknowledge that some so-called "lesser" guilds were superior and chose the RIGHT path. And GZ to them and their World-First.


Anger really does lead to hatred.

/sadface

I can do no more here and will step away.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby poptart » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:11 am

Barathorn wrote:Anger really does lead to hatred.


"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." - Jedi Master Yoda

Indeed.... :)

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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:24 am

Barathorn wrote:I will repeat myself again so my stance is clear, all said and done and with everything considered if I was placed in exactly the same position as treck I would most likely do exactly the same thing. That would be my choice.
But this isn't just about Treck and his guild, others cheated too and someone cheated first. Treck has said the world first is secondary for him, so by default, of course he'd cheat at that to keep his primary goal fair.


Barathorn wrote:Flame all you want, those are the cold hard facts of playing in a top level guild or at the top level of competition in most genre's. You have to make hard choices [which involve exploiting sometimes] which you don't at lower levels of competition. Sometimes you make a wrong choice and you get punished for it. That is simply how it is, you push boundaries for any advantage you can get. I don't think that is right, but it is just how it is.
This I couldn't disagree with more, and no that is not factual. The temptation to cheat exists at all levels, everyone wants to reach certain goals in competitions, and cheating is just as tempting for someone trying to reach a server first/faction first or whatever goal in whatever other competition. Now I imagine most guilds in WoW aren't really in any competition at all (it's a video game after all), so they may not have that desire in WoW, but it's unlikely that they haven't encountered it as some point in their life, and somehow wouldn't understand that rather fundamental concept.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Barathorn » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:00 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Barathorn wrote:Flame all you want, those are the cold hard facts of playing in a top level guild or at the top level of competition in most genre's. You have to make hard choices [which involve exploiting sometimes] which you don't at lower levels of competition. Sometimes you make a wrong choice and you get punished for it. That is simply how it is, you push boundaries for any advantage you can get. I don't think that is right, but it is just how it is.


This I couldn't disagree with more, and no that is not factual. The temptation to cheat exists at all levels, everyone wants to reach certain goals in competitions, and cheating is just as tempting for someone trying to reach a server first/faction first or whatever goal in whatever other competition. Now I imagine most guilds in WoW aren't really in any competition at all (it's a video game after all), so they may not have that desire in WoW, but it's unlikely that they haven't encountered it as some point in their life, and somehow wouldn't understand that rather fundamental concept.


We can agree to disagree then. That is fine by me.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby halabar » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:01 am

Barathorn wrote:Flame all you want, those are the cold hard facts of playing in a top level guild or at the top level of competition in most genre's. You have to make hard choices [which involve exploiting sometimes] which you don't at lower levels of competition. Sometimes you make a wrong choice and you get punished for it. That is simply how it is, you push boundaries for any advantage you can get. I don't think that is right, but it is just how it is.

I don't like cheaters, but I understand why they do it.


/confused.

So you condone cheating, but yet you don't like it. So how do you feel about doped baseball players or cyclists?
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby halabar » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:09 am

lythac wrote:I am guessing a lot of people in this thread blasting the cheaters cheated their way into Heroic 5 mans early (on their main don't care about alts) under average ilvl 329 by holding onto irrelevant gear (cloth/mail etc), cheating the system, leading to gear faster, Valor points faster and better tier 11 progression.

How many people did not cheat their way into RDF? Everyone else was doing it, must be fine :p


Great example. Yes, it's 'cheating', and yes everyone is doing it, myself included. Why? Blizz isn't stopping it.

This is why it all comes down to Blizz enforcement. If Blizz hadn't stopped the exploit, I'm sure there would have been pug groups doing the same thing by this weekend, and many of us would have been doing it at that point.

The moral arguments going back and forth here remind me of the arguments in the AH thread about directly buying from botters.
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