LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

[Fridmarr]

They have almost no legal authority, but they make a good common sense starting point for reasonably fair play. Exploiting boss mechanics isn't being left off the hook but those are much more difficult to verify, and not what happened in this case.

[djlar]

Guild Masters of these top guilds knew the risk of exploiting, they let their members do it (maybe encouraging it, or worse make every member do it) and now will face the consequences of that decision.

Period

[Archeth]

For the record, I don't put this in the same category as bosskill exploits. It's just an annoying logistical inconvenience that was forced on guilds due to Blizzard's horrible lack of foresight, as usual.
No different than the multi-group nightmare of ToC/ToGC/10-man/25-man trinkets maximization, or having to spend hours farming trash when ICC first came out to farm exalted reputation rings. Both of those were arguably against the "spirit" of how Blizzard implemented the content too.

It baffles me how you can continously ignore the fact that there was no ambiguity, no "arguably", no room for interpretation. No one in their right mind should have come to the conclusion that this was somehow working as intended. Putting it on a level with running several groups through a raid to get more trinkets or farming trash mobs is just astounding.

[Treck]

I think we're all missing the point here. It's not about loot, or competition, or philosophy, or morals, or strategy, or any of these things.

It's about love.

Like two star-crossed lovers, Paragon and Method are willing to slay any dragon, overcome any challenge, break all rules and compacts, suffer the hate and ridicule of the world and be subjected to suspension and banning - as long as they face this fate together. And no one - not other guilds, not Blizzard, not WoWProgress and certainly not us - will stand in the way of their passionate UST-laden rivalmance.

I love this post

If you listened to the podcast with 2 members from method, paragon, exodus and vodka, it was pretty clear that none of the 4 guilds were outraged on blizzard for doing what they did.
Vodka said it was a shame it would make the whole race weird with different starting times, and we all wish it was never able to be done in the first place, none of the top guilds really think its an immoral choice or whatever, most of us saw it, and we acted in different ways.
The top guilds who exploited are all sitting calm at their computers waiting for the ban to be lifted, while its the community that are upset one way or another.

Also, id like to clarify that when we were on the topic of "you have to be a top guild to understand the competitive situation", its obvious that we have all had very competitive moments in our lives that are at least as important to everyone as this is to us, the problem is that while they are both very competitive, they are very different.
I for one couldnt even begin to imagine how to act if i were in some highly competitive situation of anyone elses that i havnt experienced myself.

Also, we dont only play for E-fame, most of us actually play for the competitive nature, the "E-fame" is just a positive bi-product.
Either case, 1st with exploits is better than 2nd without as far as E-fame goes.

[Koatanga]

For the record, I don't put this in the same category as bosskill exploits. It's just an annoying logistical inconvenience that was forced on guilds due to Blizzard's horrible lack of foresight, as usual.

But you are OK with using a bosskill exploit to get a world first, right?

[Brekkie]

Depends on the nature of the "exploit", but in most cases, no, I'm not OK with those.
For example, I was OK with Paragon's Holy Wrath rotation to deal with adds in Anub'arak heroic, but everything on up, from Flower Power to respawning lich king platforms to standing on a torch in twin eredar, I disapprove of.

Having to do ridiculous, stupid, annoying, time consuming, luck-driven shit as preparation for actually running content in order to min/max your readiness is nothing new, and is totally in keeping with Blizzards consistent lack of foresight and terrible design when it comes to limiting what it is possible to accomplish through grinding.

People are overstating the advantage that was/could have been gained from doing this though.
It was already possible to gain exactly the same gear preparedness as this exploit allowed, the problem is that it was subject to luck. No matter how cleverly guilds split up their mains or how many dozens of organized groups they ran, or how many countless hours they wasted, they could get boned by bad luck if the right gear didn't drop for, say, their Main Tank or best hunter.

So really, the exploit did NOT provide any gear advantage, it only:
-saved a tremendous amount of time and annoying logistics.
-leveled the playing field by preventing any guild in the competition from having to risk getting screwed purely due to bad luck.

This is why I have trouble with all the name calling. They weren't producing Aces from their sleeves. They were mitigating the ramifications of absolutely HORRIBLE design by Blizzard. They actually made the competition MORE fair by collectively using this exploit, than it otherwise might have been.

[Klaudandus]

The RNG is part of the game. They did remove the RNG by dubious method, that is exploiting.

As much as I hate not ever getting my heroic never ending winter in 35+ straight weeks of ICC heroic lootship... it is part of the game.

[Brekkie]

If they felt that way about RNG, they shouldn't have instituted such game-breaking set-bonuses and given first-week access to them in such a arbitrary, luck-dependent manner.

[Gracerath]

If they felt that way about RNG, they shouldn't have instituted such game-breaking set-bonuses and given first-week access to them in such a arbitrary, luck-dependent manner.

Lol, really? The carrot was so tempting, they HAD to exploit. Kind of reminds me of the comedy routine. "Its not my fault officer, she was wearing a tight dress."

[mavfin]

If they felt that way about RNG, they shouldn't have instituted such game-breaking set-bonuses and given first-week access to them in such a arbitrary, luck-dependent manner.

All I see from you in this, really, is "They were in competition for #1, and you scrubs just don't understand that the rules don't really apply to them."

Oh, and of course, as you just did "It's Blizzard's fault anyway."

Yeah, w/e. I used to listen to you.

[Klaudandus]

If they felt that way about RNG, they shouldn't have instituted such game-breaking set-bonuses and given first-week access to them in such a arbitrary, luck-dependent manner.

I literally ran out of words to say, so here... this should tell you what I really think.

[Brekkie]

Well, I WAS enjoying the discussion because of the implications regarding separation of the virtual world from real society, and the moral ambiguity resulting, but it seems like too many people are too narrow-minded to actually talk about that.

So whatever. I have no stake in things either way, and I'm not gonna sit here and have memes spammed at me because I have a different perspective on morality that you, so I'm out. Have fun being self-righteous about a video game.

[Gracerath]

Lets be honest. The last few pages (or the last bunch of pages) was basically a treadmill. Neither side seemed to be listening to eachother and the conversation wasn't going anywhere. I kept seeing the same exact points being told over and over again in slightly different ways. It is a shame that people with some integrity in a video game get labled as self righteous, but whatevs.

[Fridmarr]

Well, I WAS enjoying the discussion because of the implications regarding separation of the virtual world from real society, and the moral ambiguity resulting, but it seems like too many people are too narrow-minded to actually talk about that.

So whatever. I have no stake in things either way, and I'm not gonna sit here and have memes spammed at me because I have a different perspective on morality that you, so I'm out. Have fun being self-righteous about a video game.

I'd agree those last few responses have been pretty trollish, and I'd like to call on folks to stop that sort of behavior.

That said, they disagree with you, that doesn't make them narrow-minded because quite honestly, you simply haven't made your case. I really don't think there's any logical separation to be made. How is making your avatar in a video game do something against the rules any different than say making a piece on a chess board violate some rule? The competition wasn't between pixels or wooden pieces on a board, it was between real people.

Don't get me wrong, the fact that this is a game, no one is getting paid, no one is winning anything and things like that certainly mitigate some implications, but they don't really redefine the action itself.

Honestly, I could care less that anyone cheated, I think the whole competition is silly in the first place. But that's me, others enjoy it and take it seriously so I get their disappointment.

[Klaudandus]

<-- My face when...

I just ran out of things to say, arguments are just being dismissed because
- Not in a top raiding guild
- Integrity has no place in a competition
- Top Guilds are special
- It's Blizzard's fault
- Blizzard has no place in judging this
- Aliens

Roll the dice and pick one. Only thing left for me is to give up and facepalm my way out of the debate. The last bit about the RNG just blew my mind out.