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LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:17 am

Kerriodos wrote:They're not wrong, though, from a certain angle. Do you really think vodka will be as happy to score a World First Deathwing kill this week as they would be if the EU guilds had been working on it at the same time? Yes, World First is an accomplishment, but I know I would be less enthused to win a race when the people who regularly win aren't even there. I do get where you're coming from, though. I haven't really seen anything derogatory thrown at vodka so much as Blood Legion--whom are derided mostly because they're jerks--but it's kind of silly to say "well we got kicked out so your race doesn't matter."

Luckily, that's not what Treck is saying, in the least. You're seeing "race to world first"; he's seeing "race to beat Paragon." The World First is, generally, a bi-product of that race, but I get the feeling that Method would be content with a World 3rd in this race so long as Paragon was 4th. Maybe not as happy as with a 1st, but they've set out to prove they can beat Paragon in this race, less than they've set out to be 1st. It's just assumed that 1st comes as part of the deal in that race, which may or may not be true.


Yes, but it's up to Vodka to say "We won world first, but it kinda feels empty because Method/Paragon were not there racing with us" than Paragon/Method saying "The victory is hollow because we're not there"
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:18 am

theckhd wrote:Several people have brought up the "you'd think differently if you had kids" angle. That's what bothered me. I think that argument is bullshit. One of the first things that was drilled into my head as a child was that video games are not real life. That's a fairly straightforward lesson, but it's reinforced over and over to ensure that children recognize the difference and don't make real-life moral decisions the same way they do in a game; just because you carjack someone in GTA without repercussions doesn't make that same choice acceptable in real life.

So, one of the first things you make clear to child gamers is that the choices they make in video games operate in a different "morality space" (or lack thereof) than real life. Which seems to invalidate the argument that making an "immoral" choice in or regarding a video game sets a bad example for those kids; presumably they've been taught this lesson already, and can recognize the difference between game morality and life morality. If not, they shouldn't be playing or watching the game in the first place. So I have to wonder, can you make the argument that "cheating in a video game sets a bad example for my kids" without implicitly admitting that your kid isn't capable of separating video game morality from real life morality?
But it's not the video game part that anyone cares about. They cheated in a real life competition against other real people. It's an informal non-sanctioned competition, but that's the part people care about and it's not virtual. So yeah, you can make the claim that it sets a bad example for a kids and stuff along that vein.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Kerriodos » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:24 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Kerriodos wrote:They're not wrong, though, from a certain angle. Do you really think vodka will be as happy to score a World First Deathwing kill this week as they would be if the EU guilds had been working on it at the same time? Yes, World First is an accomplishment, but I know I would be less enthused to win a race when the people who regularly win aren't even there. I do get where you're coming from, though. I haven't really seen anything derogatory thrown at vodka so much as Blood Legion--whom are derided mostly because they're jerks--but it's kind of silly to say "well we got kicked out so your race doesn't matter."

Luckily, that's not what Treck is saying, in the least. You're seeing "race to world first"; he's seeing "race to beat Paragon." The World First is, generally, a bi-product of that race, but I get the feeling that Method would be content with a World 3rd in this race so long as Paragon was 4th. Maybe not as happy as with a 1st, but they've set out to prove they can beat Paragon in this race, less than they've set out to be 1st. It's just assumed that 1st comes as part of the deal in that race, which may or may not be true.


Yes, but it's up to Vodka to say "We won world first, but it kinda feels empty because Method/Paragon were not there racing with us" than Paragon/Method saying "The victory is hollow because we're not there"


I disagree completely with the notion that they're saying that (Though I admit they could very well have said exactly that and I missed it...). Reread the latter part of my post. Method, or Treck, at least, is not disparaging vodka/anyone else's accomplishments so much as saying "It's cool that you might be first, but we just wanna beat Paragon." Could it be construed as arrogant that they don't see those other guilds as competition? Sure; but I think it's more that the two guilds have a special rivalry that matters more to them than the race than it is they think they're so much better than everyone else.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:37 am

Kerriodos wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:
Kerriodos wrote:They're not wrong, though, from a certain angle. Do you really think vodka will be as happy to score a World First Deathwing kill this week as they would be if the EU guilds had been working on it at the same time? Yes, World First is an accomplishment, but I know I would be less enthused to win a race when the people who regularly win aren't even there. I do get where you're coming from, though. I haven't really seen anything derogatory thrown at vodka so much as Blood Legion--whom are derided mostly because they're jerks--but it's kind of silly to say "well we got kicked out so your race doesn't matter."

Luckily, that's not what Treck is saying, in the least. You're seeing "race to world first"; he's seeing "race to beat Paragon." The World First is, generally, a bi-product of that race, but I get the feeling that Method would be content with a World 3rd in this race so long as Paragon was 4th. Maybe not as happy as with a 1st, but they've set out to prove they can beat Paragon in this race, less than they've set out to be 1st. It's just assumed that 1st comes as part of the deal in that race, which may or may not be true.


Yes, but it's up to Vodka to say "We won world first, but it kinda feels empty because Method/Paragon were not there racing with us" than Paragon/Method saying "The victory is hollow because we're not there"


I disagree completely with the notion that they're saying that (Though I admit they could very well have said exactly that and I missed it...). Reread the latter part of my post. Method, or Treck, at least, is not disparaging vodka/anyone else's accomplishments so much as saying "It's cool that you might be first, but we just wanna beat Paragon." Could it be construed as arrogant that they don't see those other guilds as competition? Sure; but I think it's more that the two guilds have a special rivalry that matters more to them than the race than it is they think they're so much better than everyone else.


It's true. Treck has said that the race is between Paragon and Method, or at least that's how each guild sees the other, and I personally support Method in beating the crap out of Paragon; but at the same time, those statements about the race being devalued because they're not in it from the start and whatever victory will be somewhat hollow because of that... well, I still think it's up to Vodka to make those statements, not for Paragon/Method to come forward with; at least that's how I feel about it.

I think I'll shut up for now, time for Football!!!
Last edited by Klaudandus on Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby fafhrd » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:38 am

Weebey wrote:Slightly off-topic, but since there have been so many posts about it: the sabermetric community in baseball--the group that I would say is closest to the sort of theorycrafting community we see here--tends to have a far more favorable impression of steroid users in general, and Barry Bonds in particular, than more casual baseball fans. Check out sites like Baseball Think Factory, Fangraphs, Tango's blog, etc. And I'm sorry, but no serious baseball fan can possibly think Jim Thome was even a fraction of the player Barry Bonds was, steroids or not.

I actually do think the steroids analogy is fairly apt--granted steroids are more serious for the potential health consequences. But as I've always been something of an apologist for steroid use in sports, I actually don't see this as a damning comparison.

I also find the fan attitude that vilifies steroid users, but lets rapists, wife-beaters, drunk drivers and even potential murders slide is completely indefensible. I don't understand how anyone with an ounce of moral sense could hate Barry Bonds more than, say, Ben Roethlisberger, even as athletes. I guess I just don't believe in the notion of "sporting ethics" as such; acts performed during a competitive activity can obviously be unethical, but I don't think there's any sense in which person A can be can be more deserving of opprobrium than person B, even if what person B did was morally far worse, because person A's act was somehow related to the competitive activity.


I don't actually know any of the names involved here or indeed how baseball is played, but this was fascinating to learn thanks :)
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Treck » Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:04 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Yes, but it's up to Vodka to say "We won world first, but it kinda feels empty because Method/Paragon were not there racing with us" than Paragon/Method saying "The victory is hollow because we're not there"

Speaking personally, I would feel like it would be a hollow victory if the other top guilds were banned and we were not.
In any case, our race is more against paragon rather than the whole world.

Think of this tho, how will everyone react IF a banned EU guild would to get the world first DW?
Its not like anyone can say we cheated our way to beeing there first.

You can also go to paragons site and listen to the podcast between some members of a few top guilds, even vodka is involved in a discussion about the ban etc.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby sahiel » Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:17 pm

Treck wrote:Think of this tho, how will everyone react IF a banned EU guild would to get the world first DW?
Its not like anyone can say we cheated our way to beeing there first.

They'll probably think pretty poorly of Vodka and BLs skill tbh (which is ridiculous, whilst if they fail to get a DW kill first they may not be the best in the world, they're clearly pretty damn good to even be playing at that level), but I doubt it will make one iota of difference to how they view the guilds who cheated.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:43 pm

Treck wrote:Think of this tho, how will everyone react IF a banned EU guild would to get the world first DW?
Its not like anyone can say we cheated our way to beeing there first.

I don't think anyone will say it wasn't earned. Any advantage that was gained was removed (correct?) and on top of that, those that didn't cheat ended up with a head start. Like I said before though, you were relying on a fair punishment from blizzard to return you back to that as far as the world's first competition goes. Had they not levied that sort of punishment then you would have had the proverbial asterisk, even if you didn't care beyond the competition with Paragon.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Koatanga » Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:55 pm

Kerriodos wrote:
Koatanga wrote:But as you pointed out, it could escalate tensions and lead to an open war between your people and the locals, resulting in the deaths of hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands.

If the numbers say losing a single convoy prevents open war and the potential loss of many, then the single convoy is sacrificed. The sacrifice concept isn't very cool for the people being sacrificed, but it could be the reason the orders are in place, and violating those orders could lead to an even worse end (on the whole, not for the people in the original convoy, obviously).


I find it interesting to note that you take such a utilitarian standpoint on the matter when utilitarianism is the exact ethical theory that top guilds used--even if they may not have been consciously aware of it--in deciding to use the exploit:

"We can cheat and, based on past experiences, get away with it. If we are punished, as nearly everyone else is doing it, we remain on even footing. If we are punished, the race may become 'cleaner' in the future. If we do not cheat, we are potentially at a significant disadvantage. Logically, therefore, the greatest potential benefit for the greatest number of people (in the competition) come from cheating."

Obviously, warfare and open conflict in an occupied nation is a situation on a completely different scale. But saying that sacrificing a convoy to prevent further, larger-scale bloodshed is the correct choice is just as utilitarian a view.

Note that this is not a personal attack, nor even necessarily a disagreement with you. I just found it interesting and wanted to point it out.

Odd, I don't see it that way. I am looking at it as the convoy leader (guild) making a decision contrary to the orders (rules) of his superiors (Bliz GMs) in a situation where it would save his life (gain a world first, prevent him from falling behind other guilds) at the expense of the greater good (integrity of the competition).

And no attack taken - this is all just a philosophical discussion anyway.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Passionario » Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:12 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Yes, but it's up to Vodka to say "We won world first, but it kinda feels empty because Method/Paragon were not there racing with us" than Paragon/Method saying "The victory is hollow because we're not there"


*puts on his solipsist robe and egocentric hat*

Of course the whole race is completely hollow - I'm not participating in it! It's just a meaningless background event performed by NPCs who are nothing but figments of my overactive imagination. :lol:
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby mavfin » Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:56 pm

Fridmarr wrote:]But it's not the video game part that anyone cares about. They cheated in a real life competition against other real people. It's an informal non-sanctioned competition, but that's the part people care about and it's not virtual. So yeah, you can make the claim that it sets a bad example for a kids and stuff along that vein.


Exactly. Killing the Alliance (or Horde) in-game is just that: In-game, and in-character. Stealing that car in GTA is in-game. Fragging players in a multiplayer FPS the normal way is in-game actions. Using an aim-bot in the same multiplayer FPS for an advantage over other players is cheating, same as exploiting LFR loot to get 4-piece.

Cheating by gaming the loot system isn't really an in-game action. It's 'outside' the character, so to speak. The person behind the keyboard is doing that part, rather than the character in-game, so, it becomes cheating other people that are playing the same game. Kids watch actions more than they listen to what you say. If you cheat at a video game, they'll note it, and if they see a pattern of you not backing up your words they will make the jump and later lie about or cheat in something that does matter, in many cases. That's what I was talking about. As a parent, you can't just talk the talk, you have to make the actions match your words, too.

You notice that I don't say much about cheating in single-player games. Then it's only your experience, doesn't affect anyone else.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby mavfin » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:00 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Treck wrote:Think of this tho, how will everyone react IF a banned EU guild would to get the world first DW?
Its not like anyone can say we cheated our way to beeing there first.

I don't think anyone will say it wasn't earned.


Oh, I won't say it wasn't earned, if that happens, but, don't expect me to really care, after the lack of respect they show for the rules. If you want to compete, you compete to win legitimately, not by how well you can find loopholes in the game.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Brekkie » Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:24 pm

mavfin wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:]But it's not the video game part that anyone cares about. They cheated in a real life competition against other real people. It's an informal non-sanctioned competition, but that's the part people care about and it's not virtual. So yeah, you can make the claim that it sets a bad example for a kids and stuff along that vein.


Exactly. Killing the Alliance (or Horde) in-game is just that: In-game, and in-character. Stealing that car in GTA is in-game. Fragging players in a multiplayer FPS the normal way is in-game actions. Using an aim-bot in the same multiplayer FPS for an advantage over other players is cheating, same as exploiting LFR loot to get 4-piece.

Cheating by gaming the loot system isn't really an in-game action. It's 'outside' the character, so to speak. The person behind the keyboard is doing that part, rather than the character in-game, so, it becomes cheating other people that are playing the same game. Kids watch actions more than they listen to what you say. If you cheat at a video game, they'll note it, and if they see a pattern of you not backing up your words they will make the jump and later lie about or cheat in something that does matter, in many cases. That's what I was talking about. As a parent, you can't just talk the talk, you have to make the actions match your words, too.

You notice that I don't say much about cheating in single-player games. Then it's only your experience, doesn't affect anyone else.


I absolutely agree with Theck. He managed to articulate something I have, unsuccessfully, trying to describe for a while...

See, here is a picture of a member of a top guild engaged in the act of exploiting:

Image


Annnnnd here is a picture of a member of a different top guild, NOT exploiting:

Image

And here is a picture of a Game Master assigning bans to multiple player accounts and removing items from their inventories:

Image

And here is a picture of a level 15 Troll Hunter taming a boar:
Image


So you see, I fail to identify any way, shape, or form that this was an event taking place in the "Real World" (in morality space) as opposed to the virtual one.
Something doesn't have to be an action taken by the pictures on your screen within the context of the game lore for it to take place within the seperate morality space of the virtual world.
A metagame-level interaction like the world first race no less exists within the virtual world than does a quest to kill five boars and collect their livers.

WoW is just a poker game, where you have to buy in with the time/cost of the Real World value of your user account, which serves as the ONLY risk and collateral that may be affected by the choices you make within that virtual world. Because it is a virtual world, you can cheat, buff, and lie as much as you want, because that is part of the game. You choose to, or not to do so based on a risk assesment of losing your buy-in (your account) as well as the chances of winning or losing the game, or the other players ostrasizing you and refusing to play poker with you any more.
Deceptions and lies, and other acts which are negative traits in Real World interactions and are thus discouraged, are regular features of MANY games, and no one claims that someone who bluffs in Poker is an immoral person. Why does a double-standard apply to the virtual world?

And no, "the act hurt someone's feelings" is not, by its self, a quality that establishes an act as taking place within Real World moral space, because of the fundamental quality of the Virtual World being that participation in it is OPTIONAL. Not like Real Life. Those people also bought into the Poker Game, knowing how it worked, and thus cannot complain that they are scandalized by another player having used deception against them. Deception is part of the structural framework of how a game of Poker works. And if they have a problem with that, they are free to get up from the table and happily go on with the rest of their life, or switch to playing Go Fish.
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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Koatanga » Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:55 pm

Brekkie wrote:So you see, I fail to identify any way, shape, or form that this was an event taking place in the "Real World" (in morality space) as opposed to the virtual one.

Well, the actions of Paragon had enough real-world effect on people to make them also cheat so as to stay even. So there's one.

Oh - here's a picture of people in other guilds realising Paragon is cheating their way to staying ahead of them:

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Re: LFR Exploit - Loot / Tier drop farming

Postby Brekkie » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:06 pm

I refer you to my last paragraph.
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