Zell has left the building.

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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:23 am

Not an achievement either (maybe a FoS), but I'd rather it be a statistic (much like number of Rag kills or times rez'd by a priest) with the last date completed and the ilvl it was completed (so if guilds are using it to recruit, someone can't just say "oh I completed it... sure I had just dinged lvl 85 wearing full greens from LK* and now I'm in full 410s and the rotation has changed, but I completed it!")

Edit: *Please note, there should be no way to successfully complete this with gear from a previous tiers level cap, much less greens picked up prior to the previous tiers level cap.
Last edited by Skye1013 on Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:24 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Better to make things as transparent and accessible as possible and allow the game and community themselves to encourage learning, than to try and push people into it.

Because that's worked so well the last 7 years...
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:36 am

Skye1013 wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:Better to make things as transparent and accessible as possible and allow the game and community themselves to encourage learning, than to try and push people into it.

Because that's worked so well the last 7 years...


I'm with SKye on this one. I wouldn't trust the community one bit. If something is made, it should be sufficient in and of itself to make the player want to complete.

Going back to the idea of "rewards", treat it similarly to Challenge Mode? Grab Bronze, Silver and Gold Medal at various mini-games designed to showcase class abilities, and build an entire scoreboard?
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Barathorn » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:59 am

You can't teach a generation of FPS players who have grown up getting what they want and when they want it patience.

The playerbase IS whiney and it isn't QQ the sky is falling whiney it is I want stuff for 0 effort whiney.

Good luck teaching them how to do anything beyond shout as loud as they can about wanting things for 0 effort, half of them probably aren't even potty trained.

I don't think you can cure that with anything. I am so glad we have finally realised after 20 odd pages that it isn't the game.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:04 am

Doesn't mean we should drop the potential recruits that are willing to learn, no matter how scarce they are. But, yeah I agree mostly on the point that there are WAY too many bad apples to my taste.

Oh and Bara, you forgot the chapter about the kids in your days ;-)
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Barathorn » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:26 am

Sagara wrote:Doesn't mean we should drop the potential recruits that are willing to learn, no matter how scarce they are. But, yeah I agree mostly on the point that there are WAY too many bad apples to my taste.

Oh and Bara, you forgot the chapter about the kids in your days ;-)


Bizzarely I didn't play from launch as I had spent 6 and a bit years playing UO and I didn't want to commit to that again despite efforts from all of my friends who loved the game and played from launch. Eventually my friends took a different route [dodgy barstewards] and started talking to my wife about it and it ended up that in 2006 when I asked her what she would like for valentines day and/or her birthday she said "World of Warcraft".

2 months later we had 2 PC's again and 2 accounts and despite a 2 month break while we changed ISP [new house and crap service = me getting feisty with court orders] we have played ever since.

Stupid friends.

Yeah in my day we were happy to walk everywhere until level 40 and counted yourself lucky if you had enough gold prior to level 45 to buy your mount. Kids of today are spoilt.

I think also that those that want to learn will learn anyway from finding resources elsewhere. The rest can die in a fire.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:35 am

I just think the system being proposed for "building a better player" runs counter to what I'd see as "building a better game".

It is by all means possible to improve the tutorial style content in early levels - replacing the dummy quests with ones with actual combat would be a start, with situations for example where a Priest would be confronted with fighting NPCs shouting "I'm injured, heal me!" in speech bubbles. (You could even go closer to the suggestions, give them an NPC "party" to fight alongside in a quest or two, complete with unit frames.)

But that should be about introducing basic concepts and mechanics, which belongs in the opening levels; the rest of the game should be designed intuitively so that once the basic concept is there, the players who are capable of learning will do so naturally.

There's no point trying to force players to take a max-level exam to receive what will be treated like a "healing license" that needs to be renewed every few months if you want people to play with you.

If the basics are introduced early and the progression of skill is designed well, then anyone who isn't able to learn probably won't be any better off by forcing them to take a test. That's just adding more gating and exclusivity (and breaking immersion, since a level 90 character should be assumed to know enough not to have NPCs telling them "you need to go practice").
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:51 am

I still think it should happen over the level period - don't throw the whole thing at max level, but build in a couple caps like...

lvl 20: don't stand in friggin stuff

lvl 40: interrupts

lvl 60: class-specific mechanic

Got me thinking - eerily similar to the mage school quests in Azshara: you can do them easily, but if you perform admirably, you can get an achieve. Give one quest that openly states it focuses on a mechanic, then keep throwing one or two in every zone to keep players on the lookout.

And to quote that meme: "Why not both?" (besides times and development contraints). Give baby steps troughout the leveling, and end up with CHallenge Modes that suspiciously focuses on specific game mechanics.

EDIT: that would also build a more natural curve of leveling -> solo challenges -> max level dungeons -> raids
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:05 am

Part of the problem is that none of this is necessary for people who want to improve, and none of this will help people who can't be arsed to improve.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Hokahey » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:21 am

The only thing I *really* disliked about Cataclysm vs. previous expansions and Vanilla was the lack of a sense of exploration and novelty. This can be blamed as much on my relative familiarity with the game itself as on the design changes in the game.

Minor gripes? Portals. I dislike there seems to be a portal to *everything*. Yes, I'm well aware I have the option to not use them. I'm also aware that I'd be causing myself unnecessary levels of hardship for what is, as I said, a minor issue. It does, however, contribute to the sense that Azeroth is just a disjointed set of instances, rather than a world. This disappointment also stems from the promised reduction of portal travel at the end of Wrath. I use portals now more than I ever did in Wrath or BC.

Scaling was too strong, in my opinion, across the board. Damage and healing output has jumped up too fast between tiers of content. I'm glad they recognize this now, but I wish they'd have seen it sooner. I saw it just in the jump between 5 man heroics and raiding.

Overuse of phasing. I thought Wrath had a much better balance of phasing overall. Also, it creates this very linear effect that is annoying for me. Why did my Druid, who was in Darnassus at release, have to travel to Stormwind to get a portal to Moonglade to fly to Mt. Hyjal?

Overuse of cinematics. Most of them were boring the first time I saw them, and quite a few were of much lower quality than I expected. To me, a cinematic should herald a seriously important event, not just crossing the boundary to a new zone, and it should add to the drama of a situation in a way that can't be reflected in quest text or a few NPC lines. So many of the cinematics fell short of this.

Vashj'ir being an almost complete waste of time. Its a gorgeous zone that your paricipation in feels like an excuse plot. Mt. Hyjal worked great with the new linear style of quests. Vashj'ir felt arduous and boring. I also dislike that I *have* to go there for reputation rewards from the Earthen Ring.

Deathwing is not as compelling a villain as the Lich King. Granted, the comparison is a little unfair, but they did so well with Arthas, I thought they'd manage bette than what they did with Deathwing. His motivation feels "cheap". "Going insane" is only a good motive, in my opinion, when the character still follows a comprehensible, if flawed, logic.

Also, Arthas taunted us. He picked on us. He was there, waiting for us, testing us. What he was doing made sense, and tied the entire questing experience in Northrend together. Deathwing feels almost as distant as Illidan. Largely irrelevant. In some ways worse, because while you could comprehend a reason why Illidan would rely on lackeys and supporters to do things, to fight his battles, it doesn't make sense for a villain like Deathwing. While I'm sure having allies doesn't hurt his objectives, they also don't seem to really be doing much to help, either, and it makes the idea of facing Deathwing all that much less interesting.

However, it did bring back the sense of having to invest time and effort in a character that I felt was lost in Wrath. It takes much more time and effort to gear a fresh level-capped character now than it did in Wrath.

I like that that ability usage feels more interactive than before, and less rotational. I know there are classes and specs that still experience this issue, but most of the ones I play are generally much more interesting and fun now than they were in Wrath and much MUCH more fun than TBC and Vanilla.

Molten Front was a well implemented set of dailies, right up there with the Quel'danas dailies/event, in my opinion.

As to the OP, I just don't see how anything he said was more substantive or insightful than any other "I'm quitting" post. A lot of what he said just felt condescending, and everything point there has been repeated ad nauseum by thousands of posters. He really didn't even say it in a way that was new or interesting to me. Some things I agreed with, but a lot of it was spun in such a negative fashion, like he was looking to complain about things.

Cataclysm has definitely been my least favorite expansion thus far, but even then I still find a lot of positives about the current game. While I definitely enjoyed Vanilla and TBC, I would not want a strict return to the way things were done in the game then.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:22 am

Part of the problem is that none of this is necessary for people who want to improve, and none of this will help people who can't be arsed to improve.


The big thing is that the game is too bicephal right now. Following the mantra of "easy to learn, hard to master", the leveling experience is soul-crushingly easy.

Then, you reach max level, and want to try max-level stuff, only to get you arse handed to you by every first boss in a Cataclysm heroic ever, because you have never been shown how to handle "don't stand in stuff". The rest of the group whines, the healer ungroups, the group disbands. Yelp, great experience right there.

Ergo, a bit like invis said: insert a tutorial without being too obvious.
In every lvl 20 zone: quest to kill a beast that breathes deadly fire with an NPC that warns you and moves around the beast.
In every lvl 25 zone: void zones, again with an NPC.
In every lvl 30 zone: FIre breath, no NPC, just an in-game warning "TAKE COVER!"
In every lvl 35 zone: void zones again, this time no warning but graphical
And mix'em up keep 'em coming in every zone. Example at 50: Mad warlock with void zones and fel waves of power. You've been trained to dodge stuff from lvl 20, so they can ask you this much.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:44 am

For all we know PvE Scenarios might give you precisely that type of content - easy mechanics-based stuff like "kill the adds", "avoid the fire" etc.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:51 am

*lights a candle at the Great Ghostcrawler Altar*
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby firstamendme » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:56 am

It wasn't a tutorial, but I can tell you that trying to do the Benediction questline on my priest in vanilla taught me some serious skills in monitoring multiple targets, removing diseases, and healing in a mana efficient way while dealing with a bazillion mobs at the same time.

You basically had to heal/remove disease on wave after wave of npcs while they were being attacked by a mix of ranged and melee undead which would come after you as well. You couldn't drink between waves, and nobody could help you as the mobs and npcs were invisible to everyone else not on the quest/holding an eye of shadow. Only a few npcs could die or you would fail, and it could only be attempted by one person on the server once an hour.

Edit: I just remembered how much oil of immolation and stratholme holy water I farmed for that quest. *shudder*
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:02 am

Yep, something similar, if not *quite* as punishing. Maybe an achieve (yeah, I'm obnoxious like that) for a perfect run? :p
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