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Zell has left the building.

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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:19 am

Warning: Incoming wall-o-text.

TL;DR - Solo instances (probably at max level to ensure full spell toolkit.) Have different ones set up for tanks, dps, heals. Have mob/NPCs set according to your equipped ilvl (and don't allow gear swapping within the instance so people can't cheat the system.)

Tanks
Instance 1
NPCs: X dps (Changes depending on dungeon or raid setting)
Objective: Hold aggro from NPCs.
Synopsis: Their dps is set according to your ilvl, and remains fairly consistent (could have some occasionally spike to simulate crit strings.) Mobs don't do damage to players, but do damage NPCs. If an NPC dies, it's an automatic failure.
Win Condition: Successfully hold aggro for Y amount of time with less than Z cases of losing aggro within that time frame.

Instance 2
NPCs: 1 healer
Objective: Stay alive against the waves of mobs.
Synopsis: Mobs deal damage based on ilvl, with NPC heals set at X hps. If you are properly using CDs and rotations, the NPC shouldn't have any trouble keeping you alive.
Win Condition: Remain in combat for Y amount of time without going below Z% hp.

DPS
Instance
NPCs: 1 tank
Objective: Dps mobs without pulling threat from tank.
Synopsis: NPCs threat generation based on your ilvl. Fight/kill mobs without pulling threat from the tank.
Win Condition: Maintain X single-target dps or Y aoe dps for Z amount of time while taking damage less than N times from mobs (does not include SW:D, Life Tap, or other sources of self damage.)

Heals
Instance
NPCs: 1-2 tanks, X dps (based again on dungeon or raid setting)
Objective: Keep NPCs alive.
Synopsis: NPCs will fight mobs and damage intake will be based on your ilvl.
Win Condition: Keep NPCs alive for X amount of time.

There could be additional ones set up for whatever it is you want a player to be able to learn, and they could easily have thematic storylines.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:23 am

You missed the memo where the average player wants everything with no effort. He'll not want to hunt that prey, he'll ask for the prey to be handed to him already backward because "he has a life cannot pass whole day on a computer you suck nolifer etc etc "


I call strawman on two points.

1) Non mandatory. Don't want to do it? Fine. It's now open for all to see. Have fun trying to keep players in your groups.
2) Nobody said it has to be a long drudgery. Instead, you're sent to a little nook in a place where you're off for a typical quest (count 2-5 minutes) that focuses on one specific class ability.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:25 am

Skye1013 wrote:Warning: Incoming wall-o-text.

TL;DR - Solo instances (probably at max level to ensure full spell toolkit.) Have different ones set up for tanks, dps, heals. Have mob/NPCs set according to your equipped ilvl (and don't allow gear swapping within the instance so people can't cheat the system.)

I find it difficult to believe they could do that without tuning them in a way players would either call too hard, or boring.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:31 am

That's the thing though... it would be primarily focused for new players, not necessarily veterans unless the veteran wants to see how he stacks up in them. And it would give them a rough idea of "my dps isn't allowing me to complete this, maybe I should ask someone for help." Whether that someone be players on their server, forums or guides.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:35 am

Oh, and before this gets brought up, maybe have a FoS or statistics metric on the achievement/armory page saying you completed it X number of times and when you last completed it (edit: and at what ilvl.) Thereby giving people some idea that you've worked on your class and might be competent in the rotation.

Edit2: Keep in mind, what I'm envisioning would only take someone 5-10 minutes to complete if done properly and allows guilds to say "go complete X before we consider you for recruitment and if you succeed you have a much better chance of getting in, if you don't we'll look at why and see if it's readily fixable."
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:44 am

It should be fast (2-5 minutes) and work in increments I think: easy to "pass", but difficult to get the bigger rewards.

It creates a positive drive. You do succeed at first and are all "Yeah! I can trap!", and then see "Ooooooh, if I can trap THAT well, I'll get that super-looking bow for transmog? And a title! Cool!"

Quick edit: I'm realising that what should happen is that, those things should be GAMES, where basic succes is easy, and where you get brought back to attempt the bigger challenges for extra rewards. Sort of a mini-game.

And that leads me strangely back to something Shoju said - those kind of games would be a much cooler addition to the game than pet combat, I think. It just needs to strike the double whammy of fun game + training tool
Last edited by Sagara on Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:52 am

I'm not sure I would put physical rewards in it, because people shouldn't feel "forced" to do it, but guilds can enforce that it be done regularly to ensure people are keeping up to snuff. If you want to have physical rewards, I'd go with max level normal dungeon type gear as a way to replace some of those questing greens that might have fallen behind (this also benefits new players by enticing them to do them, and giving them a place to get some starter gear without having to get ridiculed through the dungeon finder.) Anything beyond that seems like too much, imo.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Worldie » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:56 am

Sagara wrote:I call strawman on two points.

1) Non mandatory. Don't want to do it? Fine. It's now open for all to see. Have fun trying to keep players in your groups.
2) Nobody said it has to be a long drudgery. Instead, you're sent to a little nook in a place where you're off for a typical quest (count 2-5 minutes) that focuses on one specific class ability.

I've seen people complaining that they get 378 gear from JPs cause "it takes too long to farm". With that 80% of baddies playerbase you can expect anything really.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:59 am

Sagara wrote:It should be fast (2-5 minutes) and work in increments I think: easy to "pass", but difficult to get the bigger rewards.

It creates a positive drive. You do succeed at first and are all "Yeah! I can trap!", and then see "Ooooooh, if I can trap THAT well, I'll get that super-looking bow for transmog? And a title! Cool!"

Any accessible, solo or small group content that actively rewards player skill will in practice become something that is just perceived to punish unskilled players, and will cause Blizzard to lose subscriptions.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:03 am

The whole idea is to make unskilled players skilled... not reward skilled players.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:04 am

And incentive is not the way to do it, hence content that requires incentive to make people put the effort in will fail.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:07 am

Well, the only OTHER options is punish - "if you don't, this bad thing happens". I'm having a hard time seeing THAT model work any better with the players.

SO it's either that, or throw arms in the air saying "No way they can be taught."

BTW I don't see what's wrong with incentivisation. People whining? "It's purely cosmetic! You don't lose anything!"
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:12 am

Have you seen the whining that occurred when they stopped making separate color sets for heroic gear and just marked it with the words "heroic"? Cosmetics means a lot to people, so I agree that incentives should be minimal. Players themselves will ensure people use it, as it will become the new gearscore/ilvl, but better, as it actually shows the person can maintain whatever standard that particular solo mission presented!
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:17 am

So like achievements? I don't think I meant that incentive = transmog or title. Achieve is just as much an incentive.

Point is, it should attract the player by itself. Relying on players to push the right idea trought is... Well, let's say I don't trust many players to say "GO there, there's a quest to help you learn the ropes", and say something more like: "WTF you nobb, go delete you're a stain on this game."
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:22 am

I just don't think it's the way to go, because it will either become ignored or required, and if required it'll be resented for one reason or another. Better to make things as transparent and accessible as possible and allow the game and community themselves to encourage learning, than to try and push people into it.

That's why I suggested having other things like just being exposed to what your class is capable of during play through seeing the stuff done, because it's immersive and encouraging, and a step on the way to comparing your performance to other players.
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