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Zell has left the building.

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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Kelaan » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:17 pm

Cogglamp wrote:Isn't this a better concept to promote rather than making quests/tutorials more immersive? I find being cordial, inclusive, and polite will generally earn myself an audience with someone if they're struggling and have any inclination of getting better.


Yes, yes, in 42 billion point font, yes. If only more were like you :D
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:32 pm

mavfin wrote:
Shoju wrote:I would rather the development time that is going into pokewow be put forth into tutoring new players.


Why should you care? You've already written WoW 5.0 off.


Please don't start shit for no reason.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Teranoid » Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:56 pm

Oh so its okay for certain people to whine incessantly about everything yet its not okay for other people to call them out on it? Cool double standard.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:25 pm

Teranoid wrote:Oh so its okay for certain people to whine incessantly about everything yet its not okay for other people to call them out on it? Cool double standard.

I'm curious how one can not like an aspect of the game, lodge a complaint about that, and then not get called a whiner? I'm serious, throughout the history of this board there's been an issue that one man's viable complaint is another man's whine. One person's concern about a mechanic is another person's claim that the sky is falling.

I have no problem with complaints, as long as they don't go to the "blizzard hates us" crap or other things of that ilk which makes discussion impossible. Now I haven't read all of Shoju's posts in this thread, I've read enough to know that in general he agrees with the original post, and that I mostly disagree with him. Subjective as it may be, I didn't notice anything that crossed the line into those levels. He seemed to have his logic for his opinions and he put them out there for scrutiny. It's not as is if he's trolling into unrelated threads to complain for the sake of complaining. This topic is specifically about the issues he's citing.

This board is here in large part to foster those discussions and they do have value. So no it's not OK to dismiss him as a poster because he doesn't like the direction that the game is going, and Sabin was right to step in before it got to that. You are free to "call him out on it", but that needs to be a reasoned argument.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:41 pm

To briefly followup with some pedantry: "Why should you care?" is not discussion. It is not a comment that procs further comments. There is no reasonable response to it. This is a discussion board. Anything that is not discussion does not belong here. Thus, "Why should you care?" is not a permissible comment.

Call him anyone out all you like, just make sure you're doing it in a way that fosters discussion and not trolling/flaming/butthurtedness.

And now back to your originally scheduled discussion. :)
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:11 am

Thing is, people don't pay to have them taught a lesson. IF they reach level 20 and have to, for example, complete a trapping test before going to level 21, or the LFG, you risk losing your players.

Now, WoW has succeded because it turned what used to be a penalty into a bonus for good behavior (remember the rested xp story?) - another approach would be class-based achievements - it's public, and allows people to know what you've already done or not, and it's also a positive incentive - use your traps right, and you'll get a cool achieve!

I'm gonna push that even FURTHER - link those achieves to cosmetic rewards like, I don't know... transmog elements? Like invis said, the best tutorial is the one that doesn't feel like one. Case in point: I hadn't played my hunter for over a year and was seriously rusty on the trap department. How did I learn again? Catching the challenge beasts in Molten Front. Was it a tutorial? Sort of, my skill improved on that side. Did it feel tedious? NO WAY - some of those kitings were a blast (like doing Deth'tilac the "right" way).
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Flex » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:30 am

here's what a guild mate suggested when I brought this up for discussion
What if they had an optional quest line to join the horde or alliance military. Depending on your class it gave you a choice of what you wanted to go to boot camp for: medic, infantry, or tank. And then they had some creative quests that helped you learn skills for that discipline. You could go back and repeat the training or choose another discipline.

Maybe even have 3 ranks of passing each quest like gold, silver, and bronze. Then encouraging players to repeat the quests to get higher ranks by rewarding them with a bonus to their character sheet gear score according to how well they have done in training. This would allow people that eventually got lots of high ranks in training to queue for hard dungeons slightly sooner because they won't have to collect as high of gear as someone who stunk it up in training.

There could also be achievement and military title rewards depending on your rankings as well to encourage training.


A few other things they brought up that training dummy quests can be immersive since your character would obviously train to be better, much like pilots use simulators. Also that they could work in class trainers yelling at you that you're doing it wrong and they are the ones setting the goal for the training, like 70% uptime on SnD while performing at least 5 Eviscerates in 2 minutes or something.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:51 am

Oooooooh boy that's getting touchy. Ranks and titles are a cool reward concept, easiliy linkable to Challenge Mode, and the optional part is also cool, as it avoid the chore-problematic.
I'd avoid any visible effect on the ilvl. What would be cool would be that ilvl requirments were adapted to the rankings. Also, those ranking would HAVE to be account-bound. No way in hell am I going to farm gold rank on each and every single one of my toons.

And that leads me to the second point: I don't believe rotation should be enforced at that level, as it qualified for me as "intermediary course". Oftentimes, the problem with dungeon-level performance lies more in either "mechanic problems" (i.e. use CC right, avoid fire, that sort of stuff), or spending too long not pushing anything, NOT because the players didn't follow a rotation. Instead, a basic challenge of dealing, say, 720k damage in two minutes at level 85 would remind a basic player it's important to Always Be Casting. Follow up with a test where 5 dummies are tightly packed for an AoE-centric exercice. Meanwhile, show him the basic of CC, kiting (like that quest in Hyjal) and somesuch.

If the players want to reach the "higher" level, they'll oftentimes look for more info, and that were community/guilds come into play to learn gearing, rotations, situational uses for the more obscure abilites.

Because that's also one thing we should not forget - we can't just throw our hands in the air and ask Blizz to give us good players. In a way, they can only give the basic crash course before it gets tedious. From there on, it's up to us, wether we like it or not.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Darielle » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:25 am

The Rogue Westfall class quest and the Hunter lvl 60 class quest type design would be a lot better then some form of "Hit the training dummy 5 times" or "Try and hit 300 dps on this here thing that I shall tank for you".
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Barathorn » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:37 am

Taeron wrote:I think the problem that is forcing Blizzard to continually distance themselves from the actual gaming community is their attempt to cater not to the so called casual player, but the player ridden with apathy. This mass of players who demand things to be easier and easier, is, in my opinion, indifferent to the experience and immersion games are supposed to provide.

More and more posts from these people, who have no passion for the game, usually say something like "I don't have time to raid/learn rotations/enchant gear/try to be better, because I just want to login, do daily shit and then go offline to play other games or meet friends." What they are saying, basically, is, that they don't even want to play the game, but they do want everything from it for minimal possible investment. They seem like the type of player, who would get a new epic each week in a mailbox and then two months later whine, why does he have to go to the mailbox for the item, he should just get it in the backpack.


This is an excellant point and probably what has in honesty made me reduce my playtime by 80%. It is these people that I believe are hurting the game. You can't cure stupid.

Casual player concept has been stigmatized by these players. I know a casual player, it's a 50 year old woman, lawyer by profession, who a friend and I met in Theramore in early BC, on her priest, wearing a ring with +armor, saying it makes her feel safer. We took her in our guild as she wanted to learn the ropes in what little time online she had. She ended up healing our zul aman bear runs and loving every new thing she learned.


We had a couple of people who joined us who did much the same thing which I found to be one of our biggest success stories. They were never spectacular but they became solid players who Amh always had a special spot for :mrgreen: .
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Barathorn » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:44 am

Flex wrote:A few other things they brought up that training dummy quests can be immersive since your character would obviously train to be better, much like pilots use simulators. Also that they could work in class trainers yelling at you that you're doing it wrong and they are the ones setting the goal for the training, like 70% uptime on SnD while performing at least 5 Eviscerates in 2 minutes or something.


Couldn't they simply make them something you had to do every 5 or 10 levels with a class trainer saying 'follow what I am doing to achieve maximum damage/threat/healing output' and then a simple on screen pattern to follow from the abilities you have available - in the likeness of one of these Wii dance mat party game sort of things with symbols going up the screen that had to be followed.

That would teach people the basics if nothing else.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:47 am

Darielle wrote:The Rogue Westfall class quest and the Hunter lvl 60 class quest type design would be a lot better then some form of "Hit the training dummy 5 times" or "Try and hit 300 dps on this here thing that I shall tank for you".


Depends on the class. There more "civilized" ones could be seen at a training dummy, but others would do better in an outdoor environnement (hunter, typically). I'll agree on the point: make too many "trainer dummy" quests and they'll feel like handholding. Make them more "special" (if only by havin them in an outdoor area), and they'll feel like you're becoming a bigger badass with every quest.

Another nice example is how the Rogue Daggers seems to be set up: show how big of a Rogue you are, and you'll be rewarded in turn.

I can see it as some sort of "class challenges" that leads you to deal with your specific mechanics and grab achieves and maybe one title or two (like "Trapper" and "the marksman" for hunters for the trap quest and the final DPS quest) depending on your results. Consider:

"Avoid fire quest" - there's a young corehound on the loose at place X. We've sent a group with powerful weaponery to deal with him, but a quick person must hold it's attention. It's not very dangerous, but it does tend to breathe fire and drool magma. Go out there and keep it busy while the reinforcements arrive.

And remember, stay out of the fire!"

Quest completion: Survivre 2 minutes.
Achievement: Suffer 0 fire damage from the corehound.

"Trap quest" - We need something dead. He's physically weak, but he has a guardian that has slaughtered his fair share of would-be assassins, animals and humanoids alike. But you've got what it takes to take him down. Use your traps to disable the guard and take your target down, hard and fast.

And don't forget to keep the guard trapped at all times!"

Quest completion: Target slain.
Achievement: Suffer 0 damage from the guard.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:57 am

They don't even need to make players jump through hoops to get some sort of result. How about this situation:

Imagine the first Hunter trap is learned via an NPC rather than the pop-up (I know, it's counter to their new model, so it won't happen); just after hitting complete, an unattackable mob appears and runs at the quest NPC, who drops a freezing trap, disengages from the mob, then laughs at it while it's trapped before finishing it off with a shot. In a simple little scene you've shown the Hunter what they're capable of and encouraged them to try it out themselves, without making them feel like they're being handheld or jumping through hoops.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:06 am

On the other hand, if they're not openly asked to try it, they'll just go "Yeah. Cool. Next quest plz?"

Not saying the "show, don't ask" model isn't right, but it's different strokes to reach the same goal. Maybe we should focus on what should or should not be in such a system.

I'm thinking:
1) Not mandatory - else you get a chore, and you push people away.
2) Public - so that others know you can do something along those lines.
3) Logical in the progression - don't ask a feral druid to stand behind a target dummy - make him HUNT his prey!
4) Exciting - follow-up on 1) above, you should WANT to succeed as well as you can because achieve/cosmetics/whatever.

Am I missing something?
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Worldie » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:08 am

You missed the memo where the average player wants everything with no effort. He'll not want to hunt that prey, he'll ask for the prey to be handed to him already backward because "he has a life cannot pass whole day on a computer you suck nolifer etc etc "
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