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Zell has left the building.

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Zell has left the building.

Postby Invisusira » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:12 am

Was perusing some of the WoW forums as I do sometimes, and came across this very good, very long post. Thought I'd share it, particularly since a lot of people here can't access the WoW forums at work anyway. I have absolutely no idea who this guy is, but I agree with a lot of what he's saying. His original topic hit the post limit with debate/support; once the second thread started Blizzard went ahead and locked it.
-Invis


OP (http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3010461094?page=1) -

So, that’s it then. It had to happen eventually and, after the best part of four years, it’s time for me to knock it on the head, unsubscribe from World of Warcraft and take my money elsewhere. It’s been a heck of a ride and, despite the way I know this post will be viewed by the community, I’m going to comment on why I’ve fallen out of love with a game that used to utterly captivate me.

Don’t forget that I’ve written many long, thought-out posts that were designed to contribute; mindless QQ frankly isn’t my style, and those arguing otherwise need only check my post history. That said, nobody is forcing you to read this; if you’ve had enough of these posts, the invitation is offered for you to move along now.

Brass tacks, then – the game is currently nowhere near as good as it was in the past, and there’s no way I can get onboard with the new “direction” it’s planning to take. Some of you will remember my recent post about learning to play or going away (locked for absolutely no reason) and, therefore, will be familiar with some of my thoughts on where WoW has gone wrong.

When push comes to shove, the “World” of Warcraft is dead. The world has been emptied in favour of quick access to a succession of mini games, with all effort, commitment and difficulty erstwhile required having been shoehorned out. The world will continue to shrink so long as insidious queues exist and players have no legitimate reason to travel, while Blizzard have amply proven that enough forum crying will make them change their decisions.

Most of all, however, the current development team are mired in the production of mediocrity, and the unfortunate rut of trying to manage failure. Here are some “highlights” from Cataclysm:

- A “mind blowing” experience is promised for the pre-expansion event, hugely watered down due to complaints about auction house access.
- A broken world is promised, with the delivery being little more than a few upturned zones and most of the world left largely untouched.
- Blue post confirmation that raids will be the only way to get epics, proven scarily wrong by easy to access crafters, vendors and auction houses.
- A levelling experience and length similar to previous expansions is promised, but most players take no more than two days to hit the new cap.
- The most dangerous of villains to this point, Deathwing, is relegated to bit-part zone burning and plays next to no active part in any of the content.
- The “War” in Warcraft will be returned… Except no world PvP is brought back, only faction-specific mobs that are part of the 1-60 questing.
- A “new and improved” 1-60 questing experience is promised, but it’s a streamlined shortcut in which new players learn absolutely nothing.
- A significant portion of the playerbase reports there not being enough zones in the endgame (five); this five zone model is announced for MoP.
- Ghostcrawler releases a blog entitled “Wow, dungeons are hard!” extolling the virtues of trying to improve – then nerfs dungeons into the ground.
- The “PvP arms race” is vowed to be gotten rid of, but actually made worse. PvP balance is now so bad, MLG has removed WoW from the circuit.
- Mike Morhaime states that players are clearing content faster than ever before, then oversees the trivialisation of a large amount of current content.
- Blizzard force players into a currency grind that pits players of vastly differing desires and abilities into the same queue. Mayhem ensues.
- Blizzard try to address a tank shortage by offering extra rewards. The result is a flood of bad tanks that exasperate the original problem.
- A new talent system is introduced to remove cookie-cutter specs. This abjectly fails, to the extent the entire system will be redone in MoP.
- The Vengeance mechanic, heralded to solve a problem yet unseen, is made completely redundant thanks to a baseline tank threat buff.
- A promise that crowd control will be brought back, only for the realisation to land that you can’t force CC on a random group that has none.

You get the point.

The sad fact is that the current development team have failed to solve a single problem they’ve set their hand to, actually making problems worse in many cases. At BlizzCon, they spent their time during Q&A sessions talking down to nervous (yet committed) players, arrogantly telling them that what they find fun actually isn’t and that they know best.

Since BlizzCon, they’ve spent time answering questions that are either meaningless, or have already been answered elsewhere.

At the end of the day, they’re not up to the job and the game is in decline because of it. In any business where numbers were tumbling as they are now for WoW, questions would be asked of those making these decisions and, if required, people would be moved on. Time will tell.

Of course, it’s not all their fault. One thing, more than any other, has contributed to the lack of quality in recent times and we probably all know what that is.

The dungeon finder.

In one fell swoop, server communities took an absolute hammering, the world shrank to the size of the most convenient capital city, and personal responsibility went the way of the dodo. If you want further proof of just how degrading the queue is to the community, take a look at what happened when they implemented it in Rift.

Exactly the same thing.

We all know what I’m talking about. You queue up, you take a chance. If you’re very lucky, you’ll get a group largely housed of players that outgear the content and will help to trivialise it. If you’re unlucky, you’ll end up with players whose unspeakably bad skills are accompanied by an unspeakably bad attitude. Ostracism and instant ditching are commonplace. New players are treated with contempt by players looking for “fast run plz”. And because Blizzard tried to force difficulty onto players incapable (or unwilling) of accepting it, they’ve altered the very face of the game to accommodate them.

Don’t believe me? Here’s a small list:

1) The aforementioned tank “bribe”, no longer demanding quality for the most important role in the group.
2) Party buffs, depending on how many random people are in the group, indirectly nerfing current content.
3) Threat significantly buffed for tanks, destroying a long-time show of skill for the role and devaluing it further.
4) Crowd control broken apart and altered for “convenience”, removing another potential showing of skill.

In other words, the best part of World of Warcraft (endgame PvE, not just raids) has been altered beyond recognition in order to accommodate players with no patience, no desire to learn and no understanding of the “other people” concept. What’s even worse is the fact the developers themselves have chosen to blame this on “casuals”. It has NOTHING to do with those who play less time. It’s purely to do with poor, aggressive and impatient players that can’t grasp the fact that rewards are only worthwhile when you earn them.

Watch transmogrification fail after the one-month novelty has worn off. Players are less in love with the way things look than they are the memory of how they earned those items. For me, the Shield of Impenetrable Darkness conjures the exhilaration of killing Nightbane for the first time and seeing it. My Sun-Eater reminds me of the feeling I had when I saw it after a painful two-and-a-bit-month daily Mechanar run. Sure, some items “look” nice and will see use as a result – but maybe, just maybe I’ll be proven right.

Isn’t it amazing that more people now are reporting nothing to do, when there’s never been more things available? The fact the developers cannot see that players want more endgame PvE when they report nothing to do is absolutely staggering. No amount of archaeology (frustrating), arena (unbalanced), alt-levelling (mindless) or achievement hunting (boring) will appease those who want to raid more than seven meaningful bosses a week. Heck, there isn’t even that any more after savage and unjustifiable nerfs ripped the guts out of the Firelands, a wholly underwhelming raid instance in the first place.

Rounding out, I recall Bashiok asking a player what he used to be able to do but now cannot. Oh, I wish I’d have been able to post on US forums.

I can’t see a skilled hunter chain-trapping mobs, yet contribute strong DPS.
I can’t see a skilled warrior changing stances to show the extent of that skill.
I can’t raid 10 and 25 man content in the same week on my main character.
I can’t stockpile my dungeon currency for when I want to use it now.
I can’t engage in world PvP without getting a level 1 whisper insults at me.
I can’t run multiple endgame dungeons to farm gear for entry level raids.
I can’t spend a night in challenging five-man instances for epic rewards.
I can't build a hybrid talent spec that fits a unique, albeit potentially odd, niche.
I can’t build up a server reputation as a good player by tanking for groups.
I can’t choose which endgame zones to quest in as there aren’t enough.
I can’t specialize my professions for more expensive, yet exclusive, options.
I can't level my guild beyond a daily cap that decimates newly started guilds.
I can’t do attunements that provide the backdrop to the raids I’m running.
I can’t do epic group quests that complete zones, like the Cipher of Damnation.

And more than anything else, I can’t justify paying the same monthly subscription for half the content.

So, what do I have to look forward to? The loss of level cap dungeons, despite the tremendous success of them in the past. The loss of challenging heroic dungeons as they’re made easier again. The loss of yet more buffs and debuffs to make the game simpler. The loss of group quests, being replaced by easy to complete “scenarios”. The introduction of a blatant Pokemon rip off that nobody wanted. A repeat of the five-zone Cataclysm model that I hated. Another talent revamp, stolen from the Diablo developers and implemented badly. Undoubtedly yet more dailies to grind.

I’m almost done now. At the end of the day, I’m in love with a game that doesn’t exist anymore and the current team seeks to move ever further from. I can accept that many players like this new direction, but I simply can’t get onboard with the dissolving of what I loved most about this immersive, enjoyable, massive and social game. Most players will never even know what the Scepter of the Shifting Sands is, or how wonderful the quest line to achieve it was. Frankly, I’m pained that the game will never see its like again.

In closing, I’d just like to add that never before have I seen such cynicism when dealing with (in my case) long term and loyal subscribers. As the starstruck masses chose to cheer Mr. Morhaime as he announced the Diablo 3 giveaway, people such as myself were seeing it for what it was. Against the backdrop of plummeting subscribers, I resent being bribed into coughing up another year for the disassociated mess World of Warcraft has become, by giving me a mount and Diablo 3 as a sweetener. This ugly move to stem the flow away from Blizzard’s MMO jabberwocky, honestly, made me ill in the realisation that I’ve given so much of my money to a company that would treat me in such a reprehensible way. Customer loyalty obviously doesn’t occur to those grubby individuals choosing to milk a playerbase that has been very, VERY good to them.

I’m done.

As I move onto gaming life beyond World of Warcraft, I take with me a slew of great memories and some special friendships that I’ll retain for the rest of my life; not least the introduction of my life partner. I’ll never forget my first completion of the heroic Shattered Halls having been told warriors couldn’t tank it. I’ll never forget the conversation with Azuregos as I set my feet against C’thun’s minions. I’ll never forget those first few tentative steps into Karazhan with the effervescent Luxtiamat as my dutiful off tank. I’ll never forget FINALLY seeing The Sun-Eater drop from Pathaleon after killing him every day. I’ll never forget what I still consider my best raiding achievement, finally putting an end to the Lich King atop Icecrown Pinnacle.

For all who’ve played a part, I thank you and will ever thank your part in my time. For those about to contribute little more than dumb trolling below this thread, you have my congratulations.

It seems Blizzard will ruin their own game to keep you.

Peace.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:52 am

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I find it hard to agree with much of what he said.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:57 am

Different parts will be opined differently for each person, as some of it I can agree with, but it may not be the same as what Invis agrees with.

That being said, I don't really have any qualms about having locked myself in for another year (part of which was already paid for thanks to my 6 month billing plan.) Gives me a chance to check out the xpac and then decide if I want to stick around, while still getting a game for "free" that I was planning to pick up anyway.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:01 am

I actually agree with a great deal of what he's said but it's still not enough to make me leave the game (and I even signed up for the year long commitment). The comments about the streamlined zones and leveling alts hold very true for me. I've got eight 85s currently, more than I've ever had at level cap before, and we're less than a year into Cataclysm - so I do find the leveling process a mind-numbing experience at present, even with the "new" zones.

But, like everyone who starts this game at one point or another, you fall in love with when you first started playing because that's when it was new and special and everything felt epic. There's no harm in that, but it does make it hard to re-align your perspective with what you feel is right versus what Blizzard feels is right.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Jeremoot » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:02 am

That post is a regurgitation of every ill-natured thought I've had this expansion, collaborated into one post. I don't know who isn't thinking those things at this point, but I've still yet to play any game that entertains me as much as WoW.

I don't see myself unsubscribing, but I do agree wholeheartedly with his post.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Winkle » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:04 am

Some good feedback for Blizzard there, i most certianly agree with:
In other words, the best part of World of Warcraft (endgame PvE, not just raids) has been altered beyond recognition in order to accommodate players with no patience, no desire to learn and no understanding of the “other people” concept.


It certianly feels like they're targeting an audience interested in quick thrills now rather than those looking for a more extended RPG experience. I guess thats the price you pay for developing a game for 10m people.

I also agree that the introduction of dungeon finder did nothing to encourage the development of relationships on servers. I miss the LFG channel and the people i met through it.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:06 am

Winkle wrote:I also agree that the introduction of dungeon finder did nothing to encourage the development of relationships on servers. I miss the LFG channel and the people i met through it.

This, very much.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:14 am

Some is personal opinion stuff - access to epics, the value of features like Archeology, etc.

Other stuff can depend a lot on background. Take the dungeon finder, for example. I spent three years on a low pop server, in a small guild, playing at off-peak hours. I could spend a whole evening sitting looking for a daily heroic group and not find anything. Other people are lucky enough to have been on active servers or in large active guilds that share their playing times, and as a result they mostly notice the negative side of random group forming, because prior to it they would form groups only with people they know, since it was the easiest way.

It's true that the game has been changed because of "players with no patience, no desire to learn and no understanding of the “other people” concept". The fact is, those players were already everywhere, and a lot of the changes also made it easier to have to deal with them.


One thing I can get on board with - I don't agree with the direction of Heroic 5 man dungeons in Mists of Pandaria. I thought Cataclysm got it about right, even if it did mean some frustration in random groups. Making them easy and expacting the 25-man LFR tier to stand in for the loss doesn't seem right at all. I also don't find speed running at all appealing as a replacement for having the dungeons be challenging in themselves.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:23 am

I disagree with a lot of what he's espousing (though he's spot on with the Vengeance criticism). In many of his examples, he's taking two distinctly different thoughts out of context and putting them together to show an apparent disconnect.

While he hammers home this point of "catering to players who have no patience," he's missing the fact that it's also making us more efficient with our time in-game. So it's also catering to players like me - who don't have as much time as we used to, but still like to do as much cool shit as we can with the time we have.

For all the negatives of the dungeon finder, it's far better than what we used to have. Sitting in a queue while I alt-tab to work on theorycraft or read forums is way better than looking for a tank in trade chat for the better part of an hour, not to mention having to travel to the dungeon.

As critical as I can be of Blizzard from time to time, I really can't say that I believe the game is worse today than it was 2, 4, or even 6 years ago. I'm having more fun with it than I used to, and doing so in a smaller time commitment. That sort of efficiency matters to me.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:31 am

Also, this:
In closing, I’d just like to add that never before have I seen such cynicism when dealing with (in my case) long term and loyal subscribers. As the starstruck masses chose to cheer Mr. Morhaime as he announced the Diablo 3 giveaway, people such as myself were seeing it for what it was. Against the backdrop of plummeting subscribers, I resent being bribed into coughing up another year for the disassociated mess World of Warcraft has become, by giving me a mount and Diablo 3 as a sweetener. This ugly move to stem the flow away from Blizzard’s MMO jabberwocky, honestly, made me ill in the realisation that I’ve given so much of my money to a company that would treat me in such a reprehensible way. Customer loyalty obviously doesn’t occur to those grubby individuals choosing to milk a playerbase that has been very, VERY good to them.


is conjecture and (frankly) utter bullshit. He's claiming that giving free stuff to loyal customers is somehow reprehensible. That's fucking moronic. He's only interpreting it as a bribe because he's got no business sense, and has decided that it's to stem a "plummeting" subscriber base (which also has little basis in fact, at least in NA/Europe; most of those losses were in China - iirc it was shown recently that NA/EU numbers were pretty stable over the past 2-3 years).

Diablo and WoW share a large overlap in customer base. I certainly went to WoW from D2, and many others did the same. A lot of us would be eager to play D3. Some of us would buy it anyway, incentive or not, even though we'd play it in-between WoW gaming. Others might quit wow to play D3 full-time, figuring that it didn't make sense to pay for both games. Some might not buy D3 simply because they wouldn't play it enough due to WoW.

Blizzard is smarter than this guy gives them credit for. They're not in the business of competing with themselves. The annual pass gives all of those players a way to have both, and keeps the subscriber/customer base from fragmenting and harming either game. And it gives people like me, who would be buying the game either way while still keeping our WoW subscription, a break.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:44 am

theckhd wrote:For all the negatives of the dungeon finder, it's far better than what we used to have. Sitting in a queue while I alt-tab to work on theorycraft or read forums is way better than looking for a tank in trade chat for the better part of an hour, not to mention having to travel to the dungeon.
Indeed, and in fact he's blatantly wrong about some things. The dungeon finder doesn't keep everyone in capital cities. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the dungeon finder works anywhere, whereas the LFG channels only work in the cities. The dungeon finder didn't bring people to the cities to hang out while looking for groups, that was always the case. The dungeon finder really isn't any more luck based than throwing a LFG request into a public channel either.

Once at the level cap, even back in vanilla there was little reason to go out in the world except for gathering crafting materials, or to attend some event (TAQ stuff).

While I understand his complaints about Deathwing and lore, Blizzard has dramatically improved on that over the years. In vanilla, there wasn't much to be found in the "in-game" lore about the various bosses, and almost no interaction with them before finding them at the end of a raid.

It sounds to me like he's just tired of game. His comparisons trying to illustrate how things suck now versus how they were better in the past, tend to require a quality pair of rose tinted glasses to see.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby degre » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:49 am

To improve on Deathwing, his reasoning makes no sense as, while is true that so far Deathwing has counted close to nil and was only the dragon that burned you to cinders for 10 points, we're now seeing the final patch of 4.0 that is all centered on him; I wouldn't complain about that, they have just decided to do it that way and now we're finally dealing with the big bad boss. Is also worth considering that, while not dealing directly with DW, there's been plenty of quests working around the DW topic and setting things into motion.


Overall is just another disgruntled player which says this is not QQ and make more QQ. He even contradicts himself on some topics...
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Flex » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:00 am

People who say Deathwing has little impact seemingly has not quested in Hyjal, Deepholm, Uldum and Twilight Highlands as well as assorted zones in the redone 1-60 content.

Nikachelle wrote:But, like everyone who starts this game at one point or another, you fall in love with when you first started playing because that's when it was new and special and everything felt epic.


I started playing a few months before TBC release and hit 60 in September or October but the bulk of my "growing up" was in TBC. If I was promised a world first raider slot and could have the game returned to how it was in TBC I'd tell that person to piss off. TBC was horrible in many aspects compared to the game as it is now and I would never want to return to it.

finally...

- Blizzard force players into a currency grind that pits players of vastly differing desires and abilities into the same queue. Mayhem ensues.


Because currency grinds did not exist in TBC or WotLK.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Shoju » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:01 am

I agree with this whole heartedly. This is how I feel as well, and why 5.0 is the end of World of Warcraft for me. The only part of it that I don't agree with is his idea that Mogging will fail in a month. The shine will be gone in a month, but Mogging is the best thing they have done in a very long time.

RDF / LFG whatever you want to call it, was the single best thing added to the game, while simultaneously being the worst thing to ever happen to the game.

Recently, I have decided when I leave the game, I will be posting something very similar to this on the official forums.

I have a large list of reasons, not that dissimilar from this. Tanking has been watered down, made easier, made not important. The ideas and promises from the "cataclysm launch" have largely fallen apart.

Hell, I even predicted the same points about healing that they are making when talking about how int will no longer directly increase your mana pool, back in the Cata Beta.

The game isn't what it was, and that isn't nostalgia talking. Being a part of a server community is gone. No one has to play nice in chat channels anymore, so trolling went up, so now, you can't post that often in /1 or /2. You get limited. Why? Because everyone expects you to troll, and by god, we can't have that.

It used to be, the trolls got ignored, and getting ignored was a serious problem. Kiss your dungeon runs goodbye. Kiss pugging goodbye. Kiss everything goodbye. No one would talk to you. Now? You can be a complete and total douche bag in /1, /2 /4, /p, /bg and it doesn't matter, because you have a countless number of people standing in line waiting to group with you.

I disagree with Theck and the idea that he is taking thoughts out of context and putting them together. This is really how people feel. This is really an opinion that people have. I don't know, Maybe when I quit I will follow the advice at the end of one of my favorite movies. Quote someone and go out strong, because someone else already said it better.


EDITS:
As I was posting this, other replies came in.

Theck:
Maybe he is wrong about the diablo thing. I dont' play diablo, I never have. To me it felt like a way to keep people playing wow, but that might be tinged with the perspective that a healthy portion of my guild base is going to be leaving the game for D3.

Fridmarr and Theck.
The Dungeon finder is GREAT for running dungeons. But I certainly don't go anywhere outside of capital cities anymore. Want proof?
First Character to 85's quests.
Second Character to 85's quests.
Third Character to 85's quests.
Fourth Character to 85's quests.
Fifth Character to 85's quests.
Sixth Character to 85's quests.

Wow... I did less and less questing in Cataclysm. And even at level cap. I just haven't bothered to go back. Why? Because I don't leave Org on anything that isn't Onisu. Where do I go on him? Farming old stuff. Raid bosses, Achievements, Gear. I DON'T LEAVE ORG.

Look at Pitunia. From 16 to 85 She only left Org to go buy the mounts and tabards. That's it. not a single zone fully explored. 266 quests completed. BUT! Check out all of those Dungeon Achievements. Created character 12/29/10. Digned 85 6/5/11. Never quested much. Look at the profs. Both Profs set up for dungeon running. No reason to leave a city.

MoP further kills the main reason I play this game. Raiding. I love to raid. i love getting 9 people together and going somewhere and feeling epic. it was great in TBC with Kara quests, and the attunements. While attunements do suck, the idea that I'm questing and advancing a story while raiding feels awesome. In wotlk, that was gone. In Cata, the stripped it out more, and in MoP, I'm going to be raiding random things, and random bugs, with no bad guy to even feel a disconnect, or sad that I don't have more story about.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Flex » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:03 am

Shoju wrote:Recently, I have decided when I leave the game, I will be posting something very similar to this on the official forums.


Don't, because no one cares.

Fridmarr and Theck.
The Dungeon finder is GREAT for running dungeons. But I certainly don't go anywhere outside of capital cities anymore. Want proof?


And I've leveled 3 characters to 70+ while doing zero to minimal dungeons and mostly questing. What does this prove? Nothing aside from people can level however they want.

I'm going to be raiding random things, and random bugs, with no bad guy to even feel a disconnect, or sad that I don't have more story about.


Because I am sure there will be zero story created while questing from 85 to 90.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
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Flex
 
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