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Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pandaria

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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:55 pm

You'd think they would, but I doubt that's the case... considering that several heroic encounters, at the beginning of cata were horribly binary, and things like latency and normal reaction time could screw you out.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Passionario » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:18 am

If we assume that ilvl jumps are, indeed, very important for various psychological reasons, then the PandaSquish will also have another side effect. Namely, it will send a clear message to anyone still trying to do TBC/WotLK/Cataclysm raids that they're doing it wrong and that sub-capped raiding is no longer recognized as a legitimate playstyle.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby degre » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:19 am

Well, ilvl jumps are important also for practical reasons, as while a 5 ilvls jump from 60 to 65 was a massive difference back then, you reach a point where you have to raise the jump or the upgrade would just be meaningless.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:41 am

Meaningless? Saying smaller ilvl jumps are meaningless is like a reverse sorites paradox.

The cumulative effect of all the little upgrades makes you more powerful in the end, even if you don't notice the effect right away.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Dantriges » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:11 am

rodos wrote:If you're going to code up a bot with rules about how to play each class & spec, I think you'd probably go to the trouble of coding in some simulation of latency, human reaction time to procs, and even random errors in the rotation. I know I would. Even the top players, for whom the few percent differences actually matter, are not machines. You'd want to know if you designed a class rotation that was overyly dependent on latency. For instance, if you could consistently get certain proc/GCD line-ups at < 100ms latency, but always miss them and have to use a filler at 200-300ms latency, then that might indicate you need to revisit the design (like they did with the random HoPo generation for Ret).


And why do we have quite big differences between specs if they calculated everything to such a fine degree?

We still have huge imbalances and well seems that there were quite some interesting developments that surprised them like block cp for paladins in T11, the decline of the DK tank, mana needs to matter, with quite a few corrections etc.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Dantriges » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:15 am

So the squish would lead to smaller jumps in the next expansion and it seems that the Cata jumps were quite big. GC presented an item fom T16 with numbers in the thousands. Do we want items with 3898 stamina?
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby degre » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:34 am

Klaudandus wrote:Meaningless? Saying smaller ilvl jumps are meaningless is like a reverse sorites paradox.

The cumulative effect of all the little upgrades makes you more powerful in the end, even if you don't notice the effect right away.

Depends on your base gear.

Base gear is level 60 and you get a 64 item, woot, that's a nice upgrade!

Base gear is level 378 and you get a 382 item, the difference is in decimals, even changing your whole gear you will barely notice any difference.

Sure, everything has more is an upgrade, the point is IF the upgrade is worth the effort.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:38 am

degre wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Meaningless? Saying smaller ilvl jumps are meaningless is like a reverse sorites paradox.

The cumulative effect of all the little upgrades makes you more powerful in the end, even if you don't notice the effect right away.

Depends on your base gear.

Base gear is level 60 and you get a 64 item, woot, that's a nice upgrade!

Base gear is level 378 and you get a 382 item, the difference is in decimals, even changing your whole gear you will barely notice any difference.

Sure, everything has more is an upgrade, the point is IF the upgrade is worth the effort.



But under the new squish paradigm , going from the new equivalent of 378 to 382 is as meaningful as 60 to 64.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Astronomic » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:49 am

Dantriges wrote:So the squish would lead to smaller jumps in the next expansion and it seems that the Cata jumps were quite big. GC presented an item fom T16 with numbers in the thousands. Do we want items with 3898 stamina?


I could care less about the size of the numbers, theyre just numbers that are relative to content. If blizz needs to add the Ks at the ends of numbers thats fine, no biggie.

Some people in the thread were wonding why gear progression isn't linear. The
reason for this is overtime Gear upgrade difference relative to difficulty of a new dungeon becomes minimal. ie upgradeing from a 38strength chest to a 42 strength chest is a much bigger difference than going from 100strength to 104 strength, again relative to content. It could get to a poitn where elite guilds could clear tier X content with teir (X - 2) gaer because skill would be a much greater divider.

I think i'd be for a system like t1<t2<t3 << t4<t5<t6 << t7<t8<t9..... where on the new xpacs the 1st < is max level greens and the second < is max level blues.

I think part of the problem, If you consider gear inflation a problem, is now we really have 2 "tiers" for every tier of content which greatly enhances gear inflation.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:54 am

I think you could conceivably go for significantly reduced gaps between Normal and Heroic within a tier. The updated looks and Heroic tag, and just having a difficult-to-obtain prestige status would make up for them being only a small upgrade in stats.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:08 am

Astronomic wrote:
Dantriges wrote:So the squish would lead to smaller jumps in the next expansion and it seems that the Cata jumps were quite big. GC presented an item fom T16 with numbers in the thousands. Do we want items with 3898 stamina?


I could care less about the size of the numbers, theyre just numbers that are relative to content. If blizz needs to add the Ks at the ends of numbers thats fine, no biggie.

Some people in the thread were wonding why gear progression isn't linear. The
reason for this is overtime Gear upgrade difference relative to difficulty of a new dungeon becomes minimal. ie upgradeing from a 38strength chest to a 42 strength chest is a much bigger difference than going from 100strength to 104 strength, again relative to content. It could get to a poitn where elite guilds could clear tier X content with teir (X - 2) gaer because skill would be a much greater divider.

I think i'd be for a system like t1<t2<t3 << t4<t5<t6 << t7<t8<t9..... where on the new xpacs the 1st < is max level greens and the second < is max level blues.

I think part of the problem, If you consider gear inflation a problem, is now we really have 2 "tiers" for every tier of content which greatly enhances gear inflation.


Elite guilds are always outliers however. I remember a guild that cleared ulduar with everyone in blue gear, when ulduar was end game, just because they could. Blizz shouldn't be held hostage when it comes to working their gearing curve prospects, because no matter what you do, they will always say it's too easy.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Passionario » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:10 am

KysenMurrin wrote:I think you could conceivably go for significantly reduced gaps between Normal and Heroic within a tier. The updated looks and Heroic tag, and just having a difficult-to-obtain prestige status would make up for them being only a small upgrade in stats.

Don't forget about the newly introduced gap between LFR and Normal.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:15 am

Passionario wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:I think you could conceivably go for significantly reduced gaps between Normal and Heroic within a tier. The updated looks and Heroic tag, and just having a difficult-to-obtain prestige status would make up for them being only a small upgrade in stats.

Don't forget about the newly introduced gap between LFR and Normal.


But I killed Heroic Random BOSS, I want my gear to be meaningfully more powerful than the piece it's replacing!! *rolls eyes*

In fact, wouldn't actually it being a "small" upgrade make HM more elite in the end? Since it would mean that it's truly skill that makes you clear the whole content in hard mode.

Ironic fact: The upgrade is still meaningful due to its cumulative nature.

So yeah, totally siding with you two here.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Passionario » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:31 am

Klaudandus wrote:The upgrade is still meaningful due to its cumulative nature.


Only if you're assuming that players are rational and reasonable people.

And judging by recent complaints ("Blizzard is reducing the number of talent points from 41 to 6, GAME RUINED FOREVER"), they (or should I rather say "we") are anything but that.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:42 am

Passionario wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:The upgrade is still meaningful due to its cumulative nature.


Only if you're assuming that players are rational and reasonable people.

And judging by recent complaints ("Blizzard is reducing the number of talent points from 41 to 6, GAME RUINED FOREVER"), they (or should I rather say "we") are anything but that.


Yeah, but you can't be listening to a vocal minority acting on emotion. Blizz did that and overtuned heroics on release, with the encounters being very binary. Why? Because that vocal minority were saying that cata needed to be hard/wrath was too easy.

Blizz did eventually acknowledged that they overdid it.

As for the talent tree, perhaps they should stop calling it talent tree since it clearly is not. They should just call it Perk System and be done with that talk.
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