Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pandaria

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Dion » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:36 am

Me and my wife stopped raiding at end of Wrath and took a break that lasted six months. 4.2 and free week made us come back and we have been playing since. We haven't started raiding and I dislike arena and PvP in general, so not much end content for us. So we started three manning old raids when we grabbed my brother with us. I got gear from doing Molten Front dailys and running HC and so did my wife, brother has been raiding whole time. I'm tank, wife is healer and brother is DPS. If this item squish effects three manning old content for fun in so harsh that it can't be done at all, me and my wife probably quit playing.

I don't really think that while squishing those old raid bosses, their abilitys etc will be big priority for Blizz when they probably just enable LFR for those and let that solve the problem. It would take quite lot of effort still because if it goes wrong, leveling could turn huge pain in the ass. "LFM 1 tank and 2 DPS for questing!" :lol:
Dion
 
Posts: 125
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:23 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Mannstein » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:51 am

Flex wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:I certainly wasn't replacing the bulk of my heroic 10 man ICC gear until around late level 83 or 84, and some of it not till level 85.


Deepholm was when you started really replacing some things, previously it was a wash, Uldum had the "you'd be silly not to use this" thing going on and Twilight Highlands sorted out some of the spots not filled in Uldum. I think I replaced most of mine in Deepholm, because, well why not?


My hard won Shadowmourn was replaced @ lvl82 by 5men TotT drop. Since that day forward i call her... My Shadowlol...
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
Mannstein
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:40 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby PsiVen » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:29 am

It is very important for heroic tuning (5man-LFR-raid-heroic now) that there be substantial ilvl jumps of about 13 by current scaling.

It's the discontinuities which are problematic. ToC's ilvl jump would have been acceptable if it was challenging new content, but for its difficulty it should have been treated like Ruby Sanctum to avoid blowing away Ulduar. Cataclysm got carried away and not only scaled base stats really high, but put a 69 ilvl gap between ICC gear and new Heroic 5-man gear. WotLK was what, 44 ilvls?

I don't think an item squish is needed and I really don't think they're going to invest the resources to do it right in MoP. This is probably something we'll hear about for the next expansion.
Gladiator Psiven, Retired Tankadin
WoW-sober since March 2014
Longtime addict of Space - Glory Through Conquest
User avatar
PsiVen
Moderator
 
Posts: 4364
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:28 pm
Location: On a Boat

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Flex » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:50 am

Dantriges wrote:No. Or Blizzard is too dumb to turn a knob. We had specs that deal double the amount than others and 10k+ DPS differences.


So either the Blizzard sims that they use that says Frost and Subtlety are pretty close to other specs are wrong or the players that provides the public source for DPS numbers never bother to play those specs because they move to the easier ones or specs that provide better benefits. They touched on that in an earlier watercooler. Basically if the public sims see that Spec A is now better than Spec B lots of players move to spec A which lowers the results of Spec B since those that stick with it probably aren't the ultracompetitive raiders.

Klaudandus wrote:Just because its standard, does not mean its optimal or sustainable. Which was the whole point in GC's blog.


And my point is that it isn't the per-tier ilvl increase that is an issue, just simply the history of increasing gear power baseline at expansion release that is more problematic and that can completely go away with the new treatment of rarity not influencing item budget.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 7508
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:05 am

Flex wrote:
Dantriges wrote:No. Or Blizzard is too dumb to turn a knob. We had specs that deal double the amount than others and 10k+ DPS differences.


So either the Blizzard sims that they use that says Frost and Subtlety are pretty close to other specs are wrong or the players that provides the public source for DPS numbers never bother to play those specs because they move to the easier ones or specs that provide better benefits. They touched on that in an earlier watercooler. Basically if the public sims see that Spec A is now better than Spec B lots of players move to spec A which lowers the results of Spec B since those that stick with it probably aren't the ultracompetitive raiders.

Klaudandus wrote:Just because its standard, does not mean its optimal or sustainable. Which was the whole point in GC's blog.


And my point is that it isn't the per-tier ilvl increase that is an issue, just simply the history of increasing gear power baseline at expansion release that is more problematic and that can completely go away with the new treatment of rarity not influencing item budget.


Part of the problem is that blizz tests on a vacuum. It's like Theck's simulations, the highest threat rotation is nigh impossible but for nature freaks like Meloree, who seems try to squeeze even 0.1 secs of a GCD. But in reality do not account for client/server lag, reaction time, conditions of the fight, et al.

Those specs that pull ahead might pull ahead because they're more lenient when it comes to such problems outside the vacuum, even if another spec might have more potential for but is bogged down due to complexity.

As for the 2nd point, both the expansion power jumps and the ilvl jumps between tiers are a problem, they feed each other up in a loop.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11259
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Tev » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:16 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Part of the problem is that blizz tests on a vacuum. It's like Theck's simulations, the highest threat rotation is nigh impossible but for nature freaks like Meloree, who seems try to squeeze even 0.1 secs of a GCD. But in reality do not account for client/server lag, reaction time, conditions of the fight, et al.

Those specs that pull ahead might pull ahead because they're more lenient when it comes to such problems outside the vacuum, even if another spec might have more potential for but is bogged down due to complexity.

As for the 2nd point, both the expansion power jumps and the ilvl jumps between tiers are a problem, they feed each other up in a loop.


Actually this started me thinking, have a consistant iLvL increase, with predictable jumps at the expacs. Vanilla gear would have an iLVL = required level to equip (lvl 45 gear = iLvL 45) with a +5 per tier of raid content (tier 1 gear = iLvL 65 epics, tier 3 = iLvL 75). An expac would follow this same formula but add 20 iLvLs to the gear (BC lvl 60 non-tier gear would be iLvL 80, BC tier 2 epics would be 100). Tier 3 Cata gear would be 85 (char level) +60 (3rd expac)+15 (tier 3 epics), or iLvL 160.

Numbers could be tweaked, but by following a consistant formula, they can squash the exponential growth, while still allowing a notable gain in gear stats between levels, raid tiers, and expansions. If they feel the need to differentiate the gear, they can increase gear power based on quality, or increase the base spells/abilities for the level.

Of coarse after that comes the real hard part, retuning each and every single mob in the game. It makes me wonder if at that point they may just decide that it's time to add adaptable content, instances that scale with your level so as to always offer a challenge if you chose to play it that way.
Last edited by Tev on Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tev
 
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:06 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:17 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Part of the problem is that blizz tests on a vacuum. It's like Theck's simulations, the highest threat rotation is nigh impossible but for nature freaks like Meloree, who seems try to squeeze even 0.1 secs of a GCD. But in reality do not account for client/server lag, reaction time, conditions of the fight, et al.


Something else that came up in the Hunting Part podcast was GC said that Blizz tests with bots performing the rotations. So they will use that do determine what theoretical best dps is (or threat, healing, etc). Apparently they know which classes are capable of more, even if they players haven't discovered those rotations. But as you say, those bots would not factor in the other things you mention.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Kelaan » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:11 pm

PsiVen wrote:It is very important for heroic tuning (5man-LFR-raid-heroic now) that there be substantial ilvl jumps of about 13 by current scaling.

Why is it important for heroic tuning to have that ilevel difference?

Tev wrote:... retuning each and every single mob in the game. It makes me wonder if at that point they may just decide that it's time to add adaptable content, instances that scale with your level so as to always offer a challenge if you chose to play it that way.

They're already doing that with Challenge dungeons, though -- they will scale your gear to a preset level. That's pretty close, IMO, to what they'd need -- they can also add some sort of level scaling too, though that will be harder.

I'd love to see all the abilities/health/etc scalable by level, so that the perk of running MC at 90 vs 60 is that you have more abilities/talents to play with, but the things generally hit at a scalable level. I'm sure they'll be able to add it.
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4037
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:28 pm

13 ilvls is basically the value that GC's team came to as "actually makes a difference" in performance both perceived and actual. Anything less and it doesn't have an appreciable effect. He's explained this before.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10494
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Dantriges » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:12 pm

So Frost and Subtlety are competitive if you have computer reflexes in a whiteroom scenario? :lol:

Well thought part of the reason are PvP concerns.

Well, even the damage specs from hybrids, who only have one or so, are not up to top DPS, if we exclude Shadow at the moment.

So the effect is not only people moving from the more complicated specs or is every Top Retridin speccing prot or holy at the moment?

Ok at least partially. it´s quite easy to see what´s the top spec for druids atm. Moonkin popping up everywhere? Seems competitive right now. More ferals, oh bear is a good tank riht now, but well , everyone?

We wouldn´t have fixes to abilities quite regularly if bakancing was easy. And well I think part of the reason are the hig numbers.

Well it seems that something will happen in the end. They can do quick fix with mega damage or squish the itemlevels. But it seems they are quite determined to change something.
And they probably have to make the jumps larger. If 13 itemlevels contibute x amount more, it is a smaller percentage if the base numbers are higher. So the itemlevels will have to make larger jumps. this will probably be exaggerated by mega damage, so that it shows up that you do more damage/heal.
Dantriges
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:39 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Kelaan » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:07 pm

Sabindeus wrote:13 ilvls is basically the value that GC's team came to as "actually makes a difference" in performance both perceived and actual. Anything less and it doesn't have an appreciable effect. He's explained this before.

What I meant was, aside from the carrot of "I do 5% more dps!", why not simply (ha ha ha) tune heroics to require closer to theoretical maximum DPS, and/or execution of Harder Mechanics, and skip the requirement to also have better gear? It seems somewhat arbitrary. There are many more knobs to turn than simply "push out more deeps", such as handling more/different adds, or more complex mechanics, and so on. Hell, they could even (in theory) make heroic mode fights scale to a specific ilevel's budget of healing/dps/tanking stats, scaling your gear the same way they plan to for "Challenge" dungeons, so that the fight's not about gearing but rather completely about execution.

Not that I'd have a chance at that. :D I just mean from a theoretical perspective, it doesn't seem necessary to tune it that way. I guess it does though, but it seems like excellent players play just as well in ilevel 359 gear as in 272 gear, and requiring higher gear's throughput seems like it is just a cockblock that artificially keeps you guys back.
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4037
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Meloree » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:20 pm

PsiVen wrote:It's the discontinuities which are problematic. ToC's ilvl jump would have been acceptable if it was challenging new content, but for its difficulty it should have been treated like Ruby Sanctum to avoid blowing away Ulduar. Cataclysm got carried away and not only scaled base stats really high, but put a 69 ilvl gap between ICC gear and new Heroic 5-man gear. WotLK was what, 44 ilvls?


46 ilvls between heroic dungeon gear and Sunwell gear. But, until Cataclysm epics had more stats than blues - so it's effectively around 10 less ilvls in difference. Even less if you count superior itemization, T6 set bonuses, and sockets which could fit Wrath gems.

I'm not entirely positive what the effective "epic" ilvl of Cataclysm gear is, though - did everything get the epic stat modifiers, or did everything end up green-equivalent? That would make some difference - on the other hand, not being able to "upgrade" ICC gear with Cataclysm gems widens the gap again.

Either way, the delta from ~20 effective ilvls to 60+ is pretty huge.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Flex » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:56 pm

Dantriges wrote:We wouldn´t have fixes to abilities quite regularly if bakancing was easy. And well I think part of the reason are the hig numbers.


The reason we have fixes regularly is because they have the ability to perform regular fixes unlike the past.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 7508
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Aedh » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:59 pm

Milius wrote:http://wowinterface.com/downloads/info20481-MegaDamage.html

just sayin this is awesome



WOW!!! :lol:
Grehn|Skipjack wrote:Whatever happened to Quebec seceding? If they do that, can we invade? America could really use the revenue from exporting syrup and hockey players.
Aedh
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:57 am
Location: Tacoma, WA

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby rodos » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:52 pm

halabar wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Part of the problem is that blizz tests on a vacuum. It's like Theck's simulations, the highest threat rotation is nigh impossible but for nature freaks like Meloree, who seems try to squeeze even 0.1 secs of a GCD. But in reality do not account for client/server lag, reaction time, conditions of the fight, et al.


Something else that came up in the Hunting Part podcast was GC said that Blizz tests with bots performing the rotations. So they will use that do determine what theoretical best dps is (or threat, healing, etc). Apparently they know which classes are capable of more, even if they players haven't discovered those rotations. But as you say, those bots would not factor in the other things you mention.

If you're going to code up a bot with rules about how to play each class & spec, I think you'd probably go to the trouble of coding in some simulation of latency, human reaction time to procs, and even random errors in the rotation. I know I would. Even the top players, for whom the few percent differences actually matter, are not machines. You'd want to know if you designed a class rotation that was overyly dependent on latency. For instance, if you could consistently get certain proc/GCD line-ups at < 100ms latency, but always miss them and have to use a filler at 200-300ms latency, then that might indicate you need to revisit the design (like they did with the random HoPo generation for Ret).
User avatar
rodos
 
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:20 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 1 guest