Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pandaria

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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Archeth » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:19 am

Darielle wrote:But if you cut the tier difference too much, you are looking at an instance where with a 6 or so gap between tiers, it's entirely possibly that an Affliction Lock will simply boycott all gear that doesn't have haste, which could be 8 or more slots of gear that will simply not be upgraded. That's also bad for the game.

I'm not convinced that this is "bad for the game", actually.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:48 am

Archeth wrote:
Darielle wrote:But if you cut the tier difference too much, you are looking at an instance where with a 6 or so gap between tiers, it's entirely possibly that an Affliction Lock will simply boycott all gear that doesn't have haste, which could be 8 or more slots of gear that will simply not be upgraded. That's also bad for the game.

I'm not convinced that this is "bad for the game", actually.


Neither am I

If anything, it might force blizz to itemize gear better.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Tev » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:07 am

Each new expac almost has to enforce a gear reset, or you will have a large number of raiders skipping content and jumping right into the first tier of raiding in the next expac. Considering the time and effort put into the content, from a business standpoint, it would be foolish to allow that much content skipping to happen.

Now for a gear reset to occur, you pretty much have to invalidate all the previous expacs gear before max level/heroic dungeons. It takes quite a bit to make that jump, this was really apparent when they had to make a big jump in Cata to account for the fact that there was only a 5 level cap increase instead of 10. You also have to account for the fact that you have to have blue quality items that are improved upon the previous expacs final tier of epics.

An iLvL squish may work, but does nothing to prevent them from having to make the jump in iLvL every expac to prevent massive content skipping. And when you have a large number of high end guilds trying to get world/server firsts, you know thats exactly what would happen. What's worse is with an iLvL squish, they may have to make larger proportional jumps to make sure that doesn't happen.

I still think there is a better solution out there, but I'm just not sure what it is yet.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:35 am

you could go for a middle ground, go for the big squish, leave a 10 ilvl gap between the highest gear from the next expansion and the basic green/blue stuff rom the next expansion AND force raids to read what your ilvl gear is, even the entry raid for the next expac, basically what they do with Zuls and reg heroics. That forces bleeding edge to actually do the content, if only to pass the gear requirement.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Arnock » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:48 am

Perhaps, in order to encourage people to use gear from the next tier of content, rather than just increase the ilvl of the gear, make the subsequent tiers better itemized than the previous tier's gear.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby culhag » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:52 am

Arnock wrote:Perhaps, in order to encourage people to use gear from the next tier of content, rather than just increase the ilvl of the gear, make the subsequent tiers better itemized than the previous tier's gear.

And then people complain that Blizzard designs shitty gear in the first tier.
You have to admit that it's frustrating when there's barely any good piece to choose from.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:53 am

Well, that was one of my earlier points. The big squish might force blizz to itemize gear better in order for people to actually upgrade their gear, since darielle's argument is that big squish might force some people to stay a tier behind if the gear has better stat itemization.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby mavfin » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:56 am

For a bit of history as to why Blizzard says "the ilvl jump for new content has to be X':

When Kara came out, it was dropping 105(?) epics, I think, and level 70 instance blues were 115 blues, and heroic 5-man end-boss epics were 100, I think? The lvl 70 instance blues may not have been 115, either.

Basically, the raiding community came out and said "Kara's not worth it, the drops aren't good enough" and basically, very few even went in there till they raised the drop ilvl to 115, and raised T4 up a bit. They may have had to up the end-instance and lvl 70 instance blues a bit, too, to get people to go in there.

So, people may say they raid for challenge, but, Blizzard found out the truth in early BC, and haven't forgotten it.

Also, as far as the jump in ilvl at a new expansion, Blizzard tried a softer reset in Wrath, and found Sunwell-geared guilds all screaming 'too easy' because they did Naxx in their Sunwell gear.

So, yeah, Blizzard can't win, really.

I think the plan is to squish Cata and before, but still have a full gear reset going into MoP. Then next expansion, adjust the MoP stuff down, etc.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Dantriges » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:01 am

Klaudandus wrote:So, it's ok to just give in, stop worrying and learn how to love the bomb?

Well, too bad, cuz that wont stop me from criticizing that ilvl jump was too severe between tiers. And I called it, heroic gear being almost a whole tier gear ahead would cause problems -- because it had already cause problems back in wrath!

I thought that people raided for the challenge -- but if you raid because you want 13 ilvl jumps between your dungeon to raid to heroic gear, then yeah, blizz is to blame, but look at the mirror and realize you're also the problem as well. And yeah, I got rebuttals from progression people, on this forums, that that arbitrary number was all that mattered.


Loving the bomb? Ehm no? The current itemlevels are too huge. They have to squish them.

I meant that you have to increase the itemlevel between different tiers significantly. If the levels are lower in general it probably doesn´t have to be 13 levels.

People want a return on their time investment. Loot is part of that. If the tier jump is insignificant the content loses quite a lot of interest if you go through it. At least the replay value will drop significantly.

The incentives for people to continue raiding are some mixture of experiencing new content, challenge, competition, socializing and loot. Different mix for everyone. If you turn gear upgrade insignificant you take one factor out. And no one really wants to admit it bu it still plays quite some part of the reason for people to continue or at least to go there week after week.

I´ve done the whole guild lead thing for a few years, designing my homebrew P&P RPG for ten years and well. Seems to me that loot debates turn into very nasty affairs in general and my P&P players still get excited when it comes to skill up or getting a new shiny, even the girl who dislikes higher powered games.

So yeah my conclusion is the same as what Mavfin stated. Everyone says he raids for the challenge but gear plays a big factor, too and no one admits it, because it sounds power gamerish or just plain greedy.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Flex » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:02 am

Tev wrote:Each new expac almost has to enforce a gear reset, or you will have a large number of raiders skipping content and jumping right into the first tier of raiding in the next expac.


That was true when greens had a lower budget than purples, now that they don't they can just design greens that are slightly higher ilvl and slightly better stats and gradually increase the power going forward and then at certain points implement a 13 or 19 ilvl jump, where the power jump would be very noticeable. For instance final zone quested gear can be ilvl 450 while heroic 5 man gear, remember no normal mode level 90 dungeons, is ilvl 469 so going into your first raid win your 410 Dragon Soul heroic raid epics would be ill advised.

Arnock wrote:Perhaps, in order to encourage people to use gear from the next tier of content, rather than just increase the ilvl of the gear, make the subsequent tiers better itemized than the previous tier's gear.


And if the stat priority or class mechanics never change for a class you fall into the situation of item B is better than item A because every stat is 3% more and anything that isn't is automatically crap gear no one would wear if it means losing out on haste/crit/mastery etc
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:04 am

mavfin wrote:Also, as far as the jump in ilvl at a new expansion, Blizzard tried a softer reset in Wrath, and found Sunwell-geared guilds all screaming 'too easy' because they did Naxx in their Sunwell gear.


That is a problem exclusively with the bleeding edge guilds. My guild and I leveled and geared and did Naxx the way it was supposed to be done.

I think the plan is to squish Cata and before, but still have a full gear reset going into MoP. Then next expansion, adjust the MoP stuff down, etc.


I'd not mind this. But I'm guessing that Blizz wants a one size fits all solution that can work beyond MoP
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby mavfin » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:05 am

Dantriges wrote:I meant that you have to increase the itemlevel between different tiers significantly. If the levels are lower in general it probably doesn´t have to be 13 levels.


Well, what the spread is in non-new-expansion content isn't relevant, because it's *all* leveling gear anyway. It's only relevant, really, once you hit the new gear reset with the new expansion after the squish. If someone keeps a lower ilvl item for its itemization for a while, they'll still replace it when the big gear reset hits at the expansion level.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby mavfin » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:06 am

Klaudandus wrote:
I'd not mind this. But I'm guessing that Blizz wants a one size fits all solution that can work beyond MoP


That's not how I read it. I read it that they'll squish everything but the new stuff, and will do it again for the next expansion, so that the only huge jump is for the new expansion gear reset.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:07 am

Flex wrote:And if the stat priority or class mechanics never change for a class you fall into the situation of item B is better than item A because every stat is 3% more and anything that isn't is automatically crap gear no one would wear if it means losing out on haste/crit/mastery etc


Isn't that what reforging is for? I've raided with dps gear if by reforging it makes it better than the lower lvl and better itemizzed tank gear i currently own.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Kuripari » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:11 am

Tev wrote:Each new expac almost has to enforce a gear reset, or you will have a large number of raiders skipping content and jumping right into the first tier of raiding in the next expac. Considering the time and effort put into the content, from a business standpoint, it would be foolish to allow that much content skipping to happen.


I'm just wondering how big that number might really be? (in terms of large numbers of raiders skipping content) Are you talking Paragon? Cause they probably should be able to skip some content... or are you talking the vast numbers of guilds that still haven't cleared Firelands? Of which there are still many.

I imagine, in all honesty, it might be nice to be able to get in and get your feet wet. But most guilds, even if they can step into the new raid right after hitting the new level cap, will probably not progress very far, and will still need the heroics to gear up enough to make the content doable. So in the end, they're not really missing the content. It also asks the question, why are in the raid anyways? Is it cause of the gear and phat lootz? If all anyone cares about it loot, why even bother with content? What if heroics and raids rewarded equal gear. You might ask the question, then why bother raiding anyways?

That question has already been asked a few times in this discussion. Is it the thrill of the challenge and the content, to conquer something more than the heroic faceroll. There are players who play the game for content, who will go to the dungeons and heroics because they're awesome to see and experience. (I include myself in that). Those players won't miss content. For other players maybe the ability to skip some content isn't so bad. Instead of forcing them to have to spend weeks just grinding through heroics, and there are lots of people who do consider them a grind.

Anyways, I also wanna say, I think it's nice that they're moving away from everyone carrying a stat stick. It was really nice when librams changed abilities. Although there was a statistical BiS, it still made it more interesting than another item to give me more strength. I do home they keep that trend, and move back towards trinkets being interesting, and weapons having budget spent on interesting procs instead of just more strength and dps. It really makes gearing more interesting, and fighting more exciting.
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