Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pandaria

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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Malthrax » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:09 pm

Flex wrote:
Aergis wrote:Blizzard chose to embrace that and even made it visible in my character sheet, which means they want that effect to happen.


Not really. They implemented a visible UI since tools they introduced use average item level as a method to prevent potential griefing so not having a visible method to determine this would be less than ideal.


They (Blizzard) added the display to the default UI because they (Blizzard) willingly embraced the concept of "gearscore" as a valid content-gating mechanic for the "randomly generated pick-up groups" system.

What "potential griefing" do you speak of, and how is average item level a method of preventing same?
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Flex » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:18 pm

Malthrax wrote:What "potential griefing" do you speak of, and how is average item level a method of preventing same?


It prevents people from gearing for content that they do not have appropriate gear for which would impact the game play experience of other people. Yes you can skirt it with PvP gear but not everyone knows that.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Aedh » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:33 pm

Possibly the bulk of the problem is they push MOAR STATS on gear. Maybe more gear should have fun random Chance to: or On Use: abilities.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:40 pm

Kelaan wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:And then there's the question of what to do in MoP, because a 6 ilevel gap means some items remain best in slot or close beyond their intended tier.

Reforging makes most itemization (unless you have a true dump stat) roughly equivalent. I like the idea of not having to completely replace my entire set of gear with newer gear all the time, and (as Aergis points out) the excitement of getting a BIS item (or a Very Good Upgrade) is huge. I do feel somewhat sad that taking a tier off basically means that I get to replace pretty much every piece of my T11-grade gear with stuff from the T13 five-mans (even though I'm glad to have the opportunity), and it's similarly a little sad to see every single quest reward in a new zone be a massive upgrade over the stuff I spent months working to acquire.

While it may be good for some not feeling the need to upgrade so urgently to perform well, and keeping good items for longer, the bad side is that you increase the chances of people feeling like they need to farm the previous tier for that one great item they never got, if there's nothing as good to replace it in the new tier.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby culhag » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:39 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:And then there's the question of what to do in MoP, because a 6 ilevel gap means some items remain best in slot or close beyond their intended tier.

The way I understand the blog post (and it's supported by Fig.5), we'd still have 13 ilevel between tiers during the current expansion, and they'd get squished to something like 2 ilvl gaps only once the next expansion is released.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Kelaan » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:24 pm

culhag wrote:The way I understand the blog post (and it's supported by Fig.5), we'd still have 13 ilevel between tiers during the current expansion, and they'd get squished to something like 2 ilvl gaps only once the next expansion is released.


What I like about Figure 5's implication is that top-tier (or even crappy flavors of the highest tier) gear might look roughly equivalent to max-level quest rewards, or perhaps even dungeon gear. I think that's cool - it rewards raiders, but also makes it not critical to have raided. Similarly, it lets raid teams jump right in, if they want, as Dragon Soul rewards might be Good Enough (but not optimal) to step into panda raids without being a total liability. I hear people did that with wearing Sunwell gear into Naxx -- what did you feel about that? Did you guys dislike it?
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:12 pm

*raises hand* I've always criticized of the huge ilvl jumps between each tier of gear. And I always seem to get the rebuttal that if the jump wasnt so big, raiders would be upset -- but I'll say this, and other people seem to agree with me on this, only raiders that raid for purple and nothing else would be the ones complaining about ilvls jumps not being that severe.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:15 pm

Kelaan wrote:
culhag wrote:The way I understand the blog post (and it's supported by Fig.5), we'd still have 13 ilevel between tiers during the current expansion, and they'd get squished to something like 2 ilvl gaps only once the next expansion is released.


What I like about Figure 5's implication is that top-tier (or even crappy flavors of the highest tier) gear might look roughly equivalent to max-level quest rewards, or perhaps even dungeon gear. I think that's cool - it rewards raiders, but also makes it not critical to have raided. Similarly, it lets raid teams jump right in, if they want, as Dragon Soul rewards might be Good Enough (but not optimal) to step into panda raids without being a total liability. I hear people did that with wearing Sunwell gear into Naxx -- what did you feel about that? Did you guys dislike it?


I cared not about bleeding edge guilds clearing content with gear from the previous expansion, but I always dislike how some bleeding edge people would then rain on everyone's else parade by saying that things are too easy just because they cleared it already ahead of everyone else.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Mukat » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:25 pm

Kelaan wrote:
culhag wrote:The way I understand the blog post (and it's supported by Fig.5), we'd still have 13 ilevel between tiers during the current expansion, and they'd get squished to something like 2 ilvl gaps only once the next expansion is released.


What I like about Figure 5's implication is that top-tier (or even crappy flavors of the highest tier) gear might look roughly equivalent to max-level quest rewards, or perhaps even dungeon gear. I think that's cool - it rewards raiders, but also makes it not critical to have raided. Similarly, it lets raid teams jump right in, if they want, as Dragon Soul rewards might be Good Enough (but not optimal) to step into panda raids without being a total liability. I hear people did that with wearing Sunwell gear into Naxx -- what did you feel about that? Did you guys dislike it?

What I would've liked to see would've been Heroic ICC-25 gear allowing you to jump into farming heroics for gear for entry raids, and heroic 10/normal 25 gear allowing you to moderately easily complete heroics if your team is competent. But for the most part, you would need to get the majority of last expansions gear replaced before you can rely on your gear as a crutch for entry raiding. Basically, have your top tier gear from last expansion propel you into entry-level dungeon farming, rather than entry-level raid farming ala Naxx.
But by no means would I rage if I saw ICC 25 normal or heroic gear in bleeding edge normal mode kills for cata entry raids. I hope I was clear enough on my opinion.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby PsiVen » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:37 pm

I think it's appropriate, but sort of a separate issue, to squish the ilvls of old raids which are essentially all the same difficulty at this point due to a complete lack of tuning attention with new mechanics.The biggest problem in my mind is the huge amount of retuning necessary to make all the numbers work properly.

I think they got really carried away with the scaling in Cataclysm especially. There was simply no need for level 81 gear to be higher ilvl than ICC Heroic loot. The massively higher HP pools were more a consequence of changing the healing system than stat inflation.

The ideal solution in my mind involves two really big changes:

1) Rescale old content so that it gets experienced again. Introduce raiding while leveling in a meaningful way, and normalize level/ilvl scaling to remove discontinuities. There would need to be some funky difficulty scaling to accommodate a wide range of player levels like 68-75, but the difference would be more like the current difference between 38-45. This continuous scaling would end with ICC raid-leveling leading directly into 81-82 Cataclysm content and 85s going into MoP would not experience any change on patch day. In each following expansion it would be extended through the last.

2) Don't go super-crazy with exponential scaling in MoP. Tanks should go from 250K HP to maybe 300K HP in 90 blues. It'll still be a massive increase, but not as massive as the previous trend of 7k -> 20k -> 50k -> 250k. End-tier heroic raid gear only needs to be one tier behind 90 blues, so MoP greens should be ilvl 378 (85) -> 384 -> 391 -> 397 -> 404 -> 410 (90).
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Flex » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:16 pm

Klaudandus wrote:*raises hand* I've always criticized of the huge ilvl jumps between each tier of gear.


It has never been the scaling of the tier during an expansion that has been a problem, just going on weapon DPS after a guild rogue was shocked at the DPS of some cataclysm weapons the scaling percent is similar between TBC, WotLK and Cataclysm, it has always been the jump at expansion change that has introduced issues.

TBC's most commonly raided instance was Karazhan so the starter quest gear was based around that, the Last Rites quest in Borean Tundra rewarded a weapon on par with Prince Malchezar loot. Fast forward to WotLK->Cataclysm and the most commonly raided place was ICC25 man so the starting base was much higher than if it was Naxx 25.

So one way to counter that would be to not actually introduce a jump in Cataclysm to MoP. With the normalizing of stats to just be a function of item level and not item level and rarity they can make ilvl 391 greens that would be slightly lower in power than normal Dragon Soul raid gear for the starting zone, bump it up to 397 gear in the next zone to match Dragon Soul normal and then do 13 item level slightly higher bump in the third zone to match heroic Dragon Soul and then go back to the 4th and 5th zones doing a 13/7 item level bump. At the end of questing you would have replaced all of your Dragon Soul loot no matter what you raided but not be insanely more powerful as if they introduced all new scaling.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Dantriges » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:40 pm

I don´t think that they will reduce ilevel jumps between current tiers much.

Will reduce the replay value significantly. Also if gear doesn´t matter much anymore, we just lock to go on for the next week with attendance dropping severely after you hit the first roadblock for your guild, instead of gearin up for it.

People will probably raid previous tiers for the good itemised items and complain if some vital roles are missing because they already get perfectly itemised gear on the current tier.

And I think they already tried smaller jumps and people complained. At least I heard something like that from the start of BC raiding.

You can probably make a bit smaller jumps if you squish the item levels, so +5 or so to a stat actually means something.

And well, everyone denies it. But I´ve seen so many item or DKP debates that start with "No, I am not greedy, but ...insert list of explanations why you feel unfairly treated or you need this item or the DKp don´t add up".

So I believe if the increase isn´t significant, many people will lose quite some motivation to raid after the first look around.
At least the replay value will go down significantly. And Blizzard is not able to produce content in a significantly faster rate.

So, forget it. People still like their purple shinies. Probably more than we believe.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:14 am

So, it's ok to just give in, stop worrying and learn how to love the bomb?

Well, too bad, cuz that wont stop me from criticizing that ilvl jump was too severe between tiers. And I called it, heroic gear being almost a whole tier gear ahead would cause problems -- because it had already cause problems back in wrath!

I thought that people raided for the challenge -- but if you raid because you want 13 ilvl jumps between your dungeon to raid to heroic gear, then yeah, blizz is to blame, but look at the mirror and realize you're also the problem as well. And yeah, I got rebuttals from progression people, on this forums, that that arbitrary number was all that mattered.

Blizz has to solve this, one way or the other, and if they go with the big squish, then people that just want to be uber are at fault and they're to blame.

At least Blizz realizes now that uber people send biased data when doing PTR testing and went for normalizing the new dungeons... which they would also do it with the raids, so it doesnt feel overtuned for people going into dragonsoul with the gear its supposed to be balanced around (but isnt)
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Darielle » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:49 am

So, it's ok to just give in, stop worrying and learn how to love the bomb?

Well, too bad, cuz that wont stop me from criticizing that ilvl jump was too severe between tiers. And I called it, heroic gear being almost a whole tier gear ahead would cause problems -- because it had already cause problems back in wrath!

I thought that people raided for the challenge -- but if you raid because you want 13 ilvl jumps between your dungeon to raid to heroic gear, then yeah, blizz is to blame, but look at the mirror and realize you're also the problem as well. And yeah, I got rebuttals from progression people, on this forums, that that arbitrary number was all that mattered.


You're looking at a problem of extremes.

Even right now, you have times where some pieces of a lower tier are considered better than pieces of a higher tier. Almost universally not weapons, but in some cases like with the tanking cloak, some people will see the 365 cloak better than the 378 simply because it's better itemised, regardless of stat difference. This is harder for damage dealing specs since you're looking at a higher and higher difference of a pure stat (Str/Agi/Int) but in some cases where you're looking at a 372 to a 379/378 it still happens. And that's fine.

But if you cut the tier difference too much, you are looking at an instance where with a 6 or so gap between tiers, it's entirely possibly that an Affliction Lock will simply boycott all gear that doesn't have haste, which could be 8 or more slots of gear that will simply not be upgraded. That's also bad for the game.

13 could be too much. But when bringing that down, you need to be very careful to not drop into the other problem situation, where a tier of gear is literally considered meaningless. And to say that people raid for the challenge is a completely different tangent, while "top guilds" will probably still go for world firsts and won't be happy about it but will deal with it, you're pushing the burden of who raids for what on the people that Blizzard has been opening up raiding for more through the last two expansions.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Passionario » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:57 am

Why not do both? Squish the ilvls/ratings mercilessly, and then add three zeroes to all displayed damage/healing/HP numbers.
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