Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pandaria

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby halabar » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:01 pm

Aergis wrote:Part of the reason for me wanting to keep the gear is it has a reverse effect of excitement when I get the gear. Some random gear drops now, weee. I know I'll trash it soon. When I got T2 legs in vanilla I couldn't sleep that night I was so excited, had been waiting for it to drop for like 6 weeks and there was so much drama over it one guy gquit...

I'm not saying drama over gear is good, but I do miss the excitement and rush of getting it in the first place. And I know I sound like a whiner so I'll just shut up now, it is what it is and I still play, but not with the enthusiasm I once had.


The changes they are proposing could make that worse, as the levels and perceived progression would be a lot lower.

But you are also seeing the maturing (and simplification) of the game. After 12 tiers, can you really get that excited about another tier?
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby halabar » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:02 pm

A squish will also make some of the older content harder. Farm your Tmogg gear now. :D
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Dantriges » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:13 pm

I think they should just get over it in one go. The numbers more or less got got and the growth rate is rather high.
Dantriges
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:39 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Malthrax » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:14 pm

Aergis wrote:... the need to create the desire for people to want to go raid for new gear so they keep playing...


^ = the root of most of WoW's problems. People who SOLELY "raid for new gear" shouldn't be raiding in the first place. People who "raid for new gear" and for other reasons as well don't need A HUGE GLOWING CARROT to keep playing.
User avatar
Malthrax
 
Posts: 729
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:23 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Aergis » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:16 pm

Malthrax wrote:People who SOLELY "raid for new gear" shouldn't be raiding in the first place. People who "raid for new gear" and for other reasons as well don't need A HUGE GLOWING CARROT to keep playing.


Indeed, but the major focus of the game seems to be going further and further towards gear as the most important thing, by making iLvl and gearscore so visible it only puts more emphasis on it so you can eek upwards makes you "better"...
Image
User avatar
Aergis
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1146
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:37 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby halabar » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:22 pm

Aergis wrote:
Malthrax wrote:People who SOLELY "raid for new gear" shouldn't be raiding in the first place. People who "raid for new gear" and for other reasons as well don't need A HUGE GLOWING CARROT to keep playing.


Indeed, but the major focus of the game seems to be going further and further towards gear as the most important thing, by making iLvl and gearscore so visible it only puts more emphasis on it so you can eek upwards makes you "better"...


If not for gear, you only need to kill that boss once... :wink:
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Flex » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:24 pm

Aergis wrote:
Malthrax wrote:People who SOLELY "raid for new gear" shouldn't be raiding in the first place. People who "raid for new gear" and for other reasons as well don't need A HUGE GLOWING CARROT to keep playing.


Indeed, but the major focus of the game seems to be going further and further towards gear as the most important thing, by making iLvl and gearscore so visible it only puts more emphasis on it so you can eek upwards makes you "better"...


The item level display is being abused by people who use it as a gearscore mechanism.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 7505
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Aergis » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:31 pm

Flex wrote:The item level display is being abused by people who use it as a gearscore mechanism.


Right, but that was happening before the ilvl was visible in wrath. Blizzard chose to embrace that and even made it visible in my character sheet, which means they want that effect to happen.

And like I said, it IS a profitable move, obviously due to the massive success of the game overall. I just don't like it and prefer the less popular way of doing more work to get something that will last longer. Shit, I still am doing that in WoW, I haven't missed a week of MC soloing for over 2 years for that stupid eye... Not hard work, but pain in the ass. And I know when I get it I will keep it forever.
Image
User avatar
Aergis
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1146
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:37 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Flex » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:34 pm

Aergis wrote:Blizzard chose to embrace that and even made it visible in my character sheet, which means they want that effect to happen.
[/quote]

Not really. They implemented a visible UI since tools they introduced use average item level as a method to prevent potential griefing so not having a visible method to determine this would be less than ideal.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 7505
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Kelaan » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:37 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:And then there's the question of what to do in MoP, because a 6 ilevel gap means some items remain best in slot or close beyond their intended tier.

Reforging makes most itemization (unless you have a true dump stat) roughly equivalent. I like the idea of not having to completely replace my entire set of gear with newer gear all the time, and (as Aergis points out) the excitement of getting a BIS item (or a Very Good Upgrade) is huge. I do feel somewhat sad that taking a tier off basically means that I get to replace pretty much every piece of my T11-grade gear with stuff from the T13 five-mans (even though I'm glad to have the opportunity), and it's similarly a little sad to see every single quest reward in a new zone be a massive upgrade over the stuff I spent months working to acquire.

If the gear curve is flatter, that means that either content will get harder, or more people will get to beat content (yay!). I wonder how they budget the value of a gem socket. I like that a lot of the t13 gear has three sockets, for example, though I don't know if I like the idea of seeing that be a general trend. (Once you get to 4 sockets, it gets kinda silly? :)

I wonder what would happen if they were to make all leveling gear come from vendors or reputation, and make all the quests just give money instead (since even questing toons vendor more than half of the stuff). They already phase NPCs, and have reputation vendors too, so a combination of that and increased quest gold (vendor value of items rewarded) would mean that you could go back and pick out well-itemized pieces for your role, either once you finish the quests in the area or perhaps as soon as you unlock the vendor.

For example, when you start questing in Hyjal, you could (for example) go to the vendor and buy a full (or partial) suit of tanking/healing/dps gears (thereby enabling you to get into the new dungeons, etc, if you wanted), and then decide to quest more there to unlock the later set (or perhaps have the vendors sell Upgrade Tokens that let you upgrade one piece to the next major tier of leveling /dungeoning gear). Gear could still have level requirements, but it would let people with hybrids kit out what they need, and avoid having to create/itemize 42 variations on everything.

I'm OK with ilevel requirements. It sets a decent minimum bar; I wish it were easier to guage the relative effectiveness of pvp gear, though, so that we could say something like "PvP gear is OK, but counts at an -X ilevel penalty". I think that may be less of an issue in Mists, since they're adding SOME level of resilience to your base character (I hear), which means that the item budget may be less dominated by resilience.
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4037
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Flex » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:40 pm

Kelaan wrote:I wonder how they budget the value of a gem socket.


Pretty sure in Cataclysm one gem socket is worth a rare gem in cost, previously it was a green gem.

I wonder what would happen if they were to make all leveling gear come from vendors or reputation


My enchanter cries =p\
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 7505
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Aergis » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:44 pm

Flex wrote:Not really. They implemented a visible UI since tools they introduced use average item level as a method to prevent potential griefing so not having a visible method to determine this would be less than ideal.


Right, but they could have chosen a different mechanism instead of ilvl. An off the top of my head idea would be to simply require the achievement before queuing into a random. You'd have to do the dungeon the first time with guild or random people on your own server the way it used to be done and then you could queue pug.

That would help remove the ilvl requirement as well as fix the issue of artificially boosting your ilvl anyway. Unless I'm mistaken I can have a bunch of pvp gear in my bag and still queue as tank of a heroic in greens... Right? People could still get carried for the achievement but that doesn't serve much purpose with the kick abilities in place anyway...

So if that was the only reason for making ilvl visible in the sheet it doesn't really work anyway. I can't imagine they didn't think of that.
Image
User avatar
Aergis
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1146
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:37 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:45 pm

halabar wrote:
Aergis wrote:Part of the reason for me wanting to keep the gear is it has a reverse effect of excitement when I get the gear. Some random gear drops now, weee. I know I'll trash it soon. When I got T2 legs in vanilla I couldn't sleep that night I was so excited, had been waiting for it to drop for like 6 weeks and there was so much drama over it one guy gquit...


But you are also seeing the maturing (and simplification) of the game. After 12 tiers, can you really get that excited about another tier?

Exactly. At this point tier and raid gear is "old hat". I got excited for my first epics too... but that was four years ago when I first started playing. I don't scream in excitement over gear anymore like I used to.

And hell, you (Aergis) only waited six weeks to get your tier piece. That isn't even all that long.
User avatar
Nikachelle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 11003
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Aergis » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:54 pm

Nikachelle wrote:Exactly. At this point tier and raid gear is "old hat". I got excited for my first epics too... but that was four years ago when I first started playing. I don't scream in excitement over gear anymore like I used to.

And hell, you (Aergis) only waited six weeks to get your tier piece. That isn't even all that long.


I guess my point is, I've gone back and played other even older games and I DO still get that rush. I miss that. That's all I'm saying. And that's another interesting point, 6 weeks was FOREVER back then. Now you're used to weeks and weeks going by.

And ultimately I don't have a solution, I'm just pointing out what bothered me over the years. But again, I'm probably in the minority.
Image
User avatar
Aergis
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1146
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:37 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pand

Postby Darielle » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:03 pm

Ilvl squish is still the best way to approach it. It'll resolve issues like processing power getting out of hand in the future. Yes, it'll be jarring, and yes they'll have to go back and nerf even Wrath and BC content to get it to work, but it's still the best way to go about it.
Darielle
 
Posts: 1319
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest