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Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby PsiVen » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:25 pm

It is essential for the game that these "artificial roadblocks" remain in place. The only thing that 2 lockouts per week does is allow you to clear farm content more often... Nobody stands to benefit from 3 days becoming the standard lockout.

If you simply want to double the loot, make twice as much loot drop. If you want to raid more "freely" but not more often (say twice in one week, none the next) there is no game mechanic that will work for everyone. Late Naxx and TBC taught us pretty quickly that you can't balance content with no restrictions. More than just the guilds pushing for world first kills were forced to farm more per day than Cataclysm raiders need to in a month if they wanted any hope of competing. I realize that some people don't understand the attraction of competing when you're ranked 500th or so, but that doesn't mean we should ruin the high-end raid game because it doesn't appeal to everyone.

Even regions that got late expansion releases are not going to appreciate this change. It's a bad idea anywhere, and I certainly hope it doesn't wind up going live here.

Another thought: There are very different implications for this change based on its intended scope and timing. If the change went live tomorrow, it would be terrible. If it was only for T11/T12 as farm content when 4.3 hit, it would still be pretty bad but it wouldn't screw with the progression scene.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Dantriges » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:31 pm

The system is only implemented as a test for previous raid tiers in Asia. So no one is taking any of your choices away. Certainly not the guys posting here. So there is no need to go hostile. Blizzard isn´t plannin to take something away, perhaps it considers to change a fundamental aspect of raid scheduling. there is novastly larger group of people who get their choices stolen. We don´t even know how large this group would be if Blizzard ever decided to implement current tier 2 lockouts per week in NA and EU.

We already had this system of dual ID implemented. Ok it was 10 vs 25 so it was different. Still Blizzard decided to discontinue that thing. Perhaps it impacted 10 man guilds strongly who felt compelled to raid 25 man to get better gear for 10 man. Some certainly did. The only thing you got from 10 man aiding were badges and perhaps a better itemized item or two. Like this armor pen item hunters were so keen on.

Oh and we had ZA on a three day schedule. My experiences with it are only anecdotal but we were quite happy when everyone got his mount and we could drop it from the schedule because it bored us to tears. And I don´t think we were the only group who had this experience.

The community of every MMO is populated by dicks fond of telling you how to play. This site founded during the BC era is testament to that. I don´t know how many threads we had about unfair treatment and paladin tanks getting benched or had to spec holy, but there were quite a lot. If you want to do a journey in time, read the first pages in the frustrations thread.
So the social aspects are something to be considered. My assumption is that there would be massive peer pressure and guild drama when this change would ever go live.

Two lockouts are a change to the way how the game is played, affecting everything. Such a big change has to be made with great caution, because of its possible wide ranging effects. I am perhaps more a pesimist so I see more of the possible negative sides. But well, it´s not like I am the only one, who has these concerns andI think they deserve to be considered.

We have a 90% arcane mages pop in raids. Probably quite a few would like to play frost or fire. Even if they accepted the DPS loss, most fellow coraiders in a semi serious guild would try to persuade you to change to something viable or ask the raidleader to bench you. We are world sub 2000 and I think any mage would get some screaming at if he tried to play frost and argue that he is allowed to play like he wants. Yeah he can if he is doing solo content or switching to a social guild.

It seems that quite a lot of people think they would be forced to change their schedule. It seems to be something that many people fear that they would be obliged to do if Blizzard would change the lockout system.

And well Blizzard is limiting your choices all the time. Equip a bow and activate a Holy Fire Aura to emulate a fire bowadin from Diablo 2. Or change shape like a druid. Doesn´t work? Well it´s not in the rules of the game.

And well the recommendation to play your alt instead is not condescending. It is the current SOP if you want to raid the same content several times a week. We are all forced to choose betwenn altrun or doing only main raiding. At the moment it works quite ok and some people actually prefer it this way. And I think this group of people is quite large and it will probably affect their schedule, especially if they run with friends from different guilds. And they have the point that they are doing it like that for a long time. Whom to annoy. The currently not existing group of twice a week main raider or the alt raiders?
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby halabar » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:25 pm

theckhd wrote:
halabar wrote:It sounds like the real issue if for guilds who don't have the time to raid truly hardcore to have an artificial barrier that allows them to be "competitive" with the guilds that do raid 24/7.


This is actually a game design paradigm. It's a way of putting everyone on an even playing field, so that players who do have the time to play 24/7 don't get a ridiculous advantage over those of us with jobs, families, and lives..


Oh, I can well see how it is used as a control mechanism. And I do agree that there can be some benefit from that.

But the extreme reactions from some of the harder-core raiders here is amusing to a casual raider. Especially when terms like "slaving away" are thrown around.

Also interesting that this seems to be extreme hate week. Fist it was Pandas, now it's raid lockouts.. what will Blizz come up with next.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:45 pm

theckhd wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Well it's not a specious argument. The entire crux of not allowing 2 resets per week is social.


I would argue that it's not social at all. It's a game balance mechanic, and one that Blizzard understands very well. One week might seem like an arbitrary limitation, but it's not. They could very easily make the lockout 1 day, and let guilds raid Firelands 7 days a week if they wanted. They don't for a very good reason - it would be severely detrimental to the game, and destroy any sense that guilds are competing on an even playing field.
It's completely arbitrary, it's just one in which they designed content around. If you want to talk about game play mechanics that's fine. Nearly every argument against this change (and definitely the discussion you quoted me from) fronted so far in this thread has been purely social, starting with the quoted comment from Lore. I've not argued anything from a game mechanics perspective, I'm all for hearing those issues. I just think the social complaint that everyone is getting stuck on is overblown and quite possibly worth the gain.

The playing field in terms of "time available to play" is definitely not even with the current 1 week lockout. Most of the complaints are being lobbied from folks who believe that the change would put them on the wrong side of the new field. In truth it'll never be even, but Blizzard needed to pick something reasonable, so they went with a week and developed content around that.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:16 pm

It's interesting to me that some people equate the feeling of obligation with being forced to do something, and equate opportunity with obligation.

I'm curious to see how this gets implemented, if at all. Active for T12 when T13 is current, with T13 being on the current 1-week lockout seems reasonable, but kind of silly with the new 5-mans dropping 384 loot (from what I recall; has this changed?).

If there was some advantage to some less-progressed guilds to spend more time in T12 so they could work on T13, then this would address that issue. People who wanted to get their alts (or mains) T13-ready would have more options to do so, and people fighting for purple numbers wouldn't be affected in T13.

If they do extend this to "current content" -- for the people who are angry and don't want to raid more, I don't understand why you don't just ... not raid more. There is another thread about the low tank requirements: it would seem like having more lockouts would just let you get the other tanks more face time with bosses if you want to sit out yourself. Is this a bad thing?

I personally don't think two-a-weeks is good for current content just from a consumption and burnout standpoint. I don't like arbitrary timed gating (ICC wings), nor am I certain being able to start with a "fresh" instance whenever you damn well please is a great idea either, but I have yet to see anyone put forward an argument against it that doesn't involve nebulous detriment to the game and the idea of even playing fields.

Why would more lockouts be detrimental? Too much gear too quickly? Player burnout? Content getting too old too quickly? I'm really curious to see what people think, specifically.

I personally don't care about the even playing field, and I don't know how much stock Blizzard puts into it either. I don't know how much of their game design is focused on the three weeks post-patch where people are racing to kill things, versus the next seven months the rest of the population spends actually playing the game while the top guilds log on for three hours a week, or whatever it is they want to do. Is an even playing field for the race to world firsts that critical?

The argument that all the top end players would quit and the rest of the game would be worse for their leaving has been made since TBC. You can certainly argue that this has Come To Pass (Pokemon Pandas!). You could also argue: hey: 11 million subscribers.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:36 pm

I'm in a world 8000 raid, and even for me, such a change would represent a serious personal social challenge. I expect it is the same for most of those in top 10,000 or so raid groups. My 'choice' would be to fall waay behind or to raid 20 hours a week instead of 7-9 hours per week. I define 20+ hrs per week as slaving.

And once again, what would be the game or social 'benefit' to the casual raider - minimal. The balance of this equation is that significant harm would be done to a sizeable progression raiding minority so that a modest majority could reap negligible gain. Such a scheme is simply wrong.

Again, my complaint is only on Progression raids getting a twice weekly lockout. I have no issue with farm tier getting twice weekly, and I have no beef with LFR getting twice weekly. Both farm tier and LFR on twice weekly lockouts would help a casual raider to gear up fast enough to experience the normal mode content while it is still relevant.

I also feel that LFR allows more people to experience end game content in general, which I think is a good thing. Keep in mind that in TBC many casual raiders NEVER set foot in end game raids till the nerfs just prior to WotLK came out. WotLK introduced many changes (elimination of keys, attunements, additional dungeon tiers for faster gearing, etc) to give casual raiders more of an opportunity to face content at least on normal mode prior to the next tier, and Cata is extending these types of changes to increase access to content. I do believe that a raid (even a more serious group) having trouble with normal mode could benefit from organizing a LFR run to practice mechanics in a more forgiving environment and still get some loot and experience the content.

I for one, only ever ran Zul'Aman a few times prior to the big nerfs (we only had 4 bosses down, I really only started raiding casually about a year before WotLK) a couple months before WotLK. After the nerfs I ran (or attempted to run) several end raids. On that server, NOBODY had cleared T6 prior to WotLK, and few had even entered the instance (my casual guild entered T6 as fresh 80s to try for the server first, but never got more than 2 attempted runs in). I do appreciate the increased access to end content, I simply feel that a twice weekly reset on progression content is not going to help a casual raid only raiding 4 hrs per week, whereas it will burn out raiders who currently raid ~ 10 hrs or more per week. The cost of burning out such a large portion (even if it is only 10K raids averaging 15 raiders that is 1.5M out of 11M ~ 15%) of the game population is very high, and any benefit to the casual raid (not everyone raids, so casual raiders are not 85%, I would guess more like 30%, with some of the remainder being Chinese farmers, and some being PvPers) would be negligible in almost all cases.

Twice weekly resets on farm content won't affect progression raids as they don't raid it except for alts, whereas it will present a significant benefit to casual raiders looking to gear up to enter end-tier content. People do run troll dungeons to get loot, and the option to more frequently run LFR as well as prior tiers for loot and content is also a nice one.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Dantriges » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:23 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:Why would more lockouts be detrimental? Too much gear too quickly? Player burnout? Content getting too old too quickly? I'm really curious to see what people think, specifically.


Player burnout mostly. BC ZA on a three day schedule was quite dull after a few weeks.

And I don´t see much of a benefit. People want to raid with their main. Fine. But at the same time the player base complains that the raids become boring after a while. A shorter lockout will only accelerate that. With an alt run you have another toon, another plastyle, another perspective.

Many guilds also used to extend their raid id only rarely because of many reasons. These will stay when the lockout is shorter. And for a schedule that only raids double to far gear then switch to progression the big question is, when will you switch? I still remember debates in Ulduar where it was a serious question if we farm the rest of the instance or switch to heroic and go progress.

If we want to use the double lockout many three days a week guilds have to go to 4 at least because you can´t do much in one day, unless the instance is completely on farm. At least for the bracket I am in.

You will drop in attractiveness for new recruits if you don´t do it and even for the guilds who only care about their server ranking, this is an important part in how many people will actually show up on your door. You could say only interested for serious raiders but it is a concern even for moderate guilds. At least if you are a 25 man guild with looser social connections. And the moderate guilds will have problems integrating the raid desires of everyone in the roster.

In the end I think it will affect the sub Top 500 as much as the Top guilds.

I´ve seen three day lockouts, done going to the same instance several times a week and so on and somehow I never heard people complain much about it when it was gone, rather that they were happy about it.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Ocin » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:03 am

Fridmarr wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Well it's not a specious argument. The entire crux of not allowing 2 resets per week is social.


I would argue that it's not social at all. It's a game balance mechanic, and one that Blizzard understands very well. One week might seem like an arbitrary limitation, but it's not. They could very easily make the lockout 1 day, and let guilds raid Firelands 7 days a week if they wanted. They don't for a very good reason - it would be severely detrimental to the game, and destroy any sense that guilds are competing on an even playing field.
It's completely arbitrary, it's just one in which they designed content around. If you want to talk about game play mechanics that's fine. Nearly every argument against this change (and definitely the discussion you quoted me from) fronted so far in this thread has been purely social, starting with the quoted comment from Lore. I've not argued anything from a game mechanics perspective, I'm all for hearing those issues. I just think the social complaint that everyone is getting stuck on is overblown and quite possibly worth the gain.

The playing field in terms of "time available to play" is definitely not even with the current 1 week lockout. Most of the complaints are being lobbied from folks who believe that the change would put them on the wrong side of the new field. In truth it'll never be even, but Blizzard needed to pick something reasonable, so they went with a week and developed content around that.


How is this proposed change to raid lockouts not purely a social argument? Running a raiding guild is a ton of work and most of it is social. This will force me to juggle more to stay competitive and attract new players. I don't know if you've run a guild or raid lead recently, but it is a shit-ton of work. I enjoy my workload as it stands, but it's going to force me out of the game if I have to churn out strats at a faster pace in addition to all the complications it'll cause when my raider's schedules are bumped to 4 nights a week. And believe me when I say, half if not more of my guild will want to raid 4-5 nights and they will get burnt out...just like in WotLK when we ran 25s and 10s.

I think a few posters here have just become über-contrarians that have really distanced themselves from players that have to deal with the social issues of this game, and it's a shame that they think this change only affects the hardcore player-base.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Passionario » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:17 am

Thought experiment: imagine if they'd done the opposite thing instead, and increased lockout to 2 weeks.

Would that be better or worse, and why?
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby PsiVen » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:23 am

fuzzygeek wrote:It's interesting to me that some people equate the feeling of obligation with being forced to do something, and equate opportunity with obligation.


Restrictions define everything about the game. You take the time to level up because the game doesn't let you start at 85. You run back to your corpse because the game doesn't let you reincarnate instantly every time. Players often request these kinds of freedoms because it sounds like it would be more fun to be able to skip the "bad parts." Blizzard has actually commented on this issue before, discussing the type of feedback that developers have to ignore because they know better.

It's the same reason few people lock their characters at 70 and progress through TBC raids -- they have the freedom to level past 70, and due to the social nature of the game, they are therefore effectively deprived of the opportunity to do otherwise.

Game balance mechanics are very much social issues. At a distance with no social considerations it might not be obvious that it's almost impossible to form a group of level-locked players for 60/70/80 raids, but in-game it's quite obvious that raising the level cap killed the ability to raid those tiers as originally intended. That is an acceptable sacrifice in the name of new content to replace it, but you can't just raise the level cap mid-expansion and say that only the people going for world firsts are going to bother leveling to 86 because it takes 300 million XP. The end result is millions of players complaining that you made a horrific grind the only way to compete.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:19 am

Just a thought... for most high end guilds it's less about gear and more about time vs. boss. So if a world first/server first guild is taking the time to use the 2nd lockout for more gear, they're getting less time vs. boss. Which is the tradeoff. Do you have the skill to be "undergeared" or would you rather have that extra padding so it takes fewer tries? From what I can see, that would still allow competitive guilds to progress at the same rate. Just some would do so with less gear because they've decided they have the skill to do so.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:46 am

It's a purely personal opinion, but I don't like this for current content, and I'm more in the "the LFR is there for that"-group.

If only because I expect my guild to explode between those that want to extend our raiding times and those that cannot invest the time...
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby degre » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:53 am

mavfin wrote:
Rokh wrote:All raid guilds will suffer if this goes live and if you dont understand why its not really worth explaining.


And if you don't understand that 'capability' does not equate to 'mandatory' then there's no need for me to explain further. It's your (and your guild's) CHOICE to raid twice as much if/when this is implemented. The game's not forcing you to do anything. And it's definitely not a reason to not put it in the game because you feel you 'have to' do something that no one's forcing on you.

A choice is a real choice when you really can choose between the two options.

As tanks we have the choice to gem our gear in many different ways, the fact that we can choose to shove in haste or go for the hit cap when we are still lacking mastery for the cap is not a real choice, you could surely do it, but would not be optimal. Same goes for our talents, you can choose this or that, but matter of fact you have no choice if you want to optimal. Hell, you could choose to grab a hammer and smash your nuts, but in all honesty I would not suggest it...

What he is saying that when you come to certain situations you don't really have a choice, if with the current raid lockout they can schedule 3 days a week, be done with their progression and be competitive, with an extra lockout they would be forced to do that extra day if they want to keep up with the other guilds.
As of now they can keep up raiding less, after they will no longer be able. Hence the choice will not really be do the extra day or not, because if they want to keep up with what they are currently doing they will be forced to push harder, the real choice will then be between 'stay on 3 days and forget your rank' or 'add a fourth day and keep pushing for your rank', is not a real choice, to keep up they'll have to add a day, hence the choice means adapt or give up, which is frustrating.


This said, why are arguing about something that we don't know to which content will apply, and moreover we don't even know if it will ever apply to us?


PS. I've ignored the whole 'go LFR' argument as I think is pointless, current HC gear is 391 while t13 LFR gear is 390, hence might be worth for alts or to bring new people up to speed, but more or less useless to anyone that's currently clearing HCs. Maybe could be an option the first week to get the tier bonuses, but you'll soon forget about it.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:10 am

degre wrote:Hell, you could choose to grab a hammer and smash your nuts, but in all honesty I would not suggest it...

The option is still there, whether or not you personally feel it's smart to do so (and many will agree with you that smashing your nuts is a bad idea,) doesn't change that. Same goes for gemming, in fact. However, inflicting pain on yourself vs feeling forced to spend more time doing certain things in a video game are hardly comparable.

And we constantly argue/discuss content that we may or may not ever see live (see beta/patch note threads.) Hell... look at the MoP thread and what little we know about the xpac, yet people are still breaking it apart on both sides.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby degre » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:16 am

Skye1013 wrote:
degre wrote:Hell, you could choose to grab a hammer and smash your nuts, but in all honesty I would not suggest it...

The option is still there, whether or not you personally feel it's smart to do so (and many will agree with you that smashing your nuts is a bad idea,) doesn't change that. Same goes for gemming, in fact. However, inflicting pain on yourself vs feeling forced to spend more time doing certain things in a video game are hardly comparable.

And we constantly argue/discuss content that we may or may not ever see live (see beta/patch note threads.) Hell... look at the MoP thread and what little we know about the xpac, yet people are still breaking it apart on both sides.

My point is that you're discussing semantics, the fact you have a choice doesn't mean that is a real one.
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