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Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby mavfin » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:43 pm

Levantine wrote:But the choice you're giving him is "You can choose to be a hardcore raider, or not."


So it's ok to limit our choices...so that he can avoid making a choice himself? No.

No one's forcing anyone to use that 2nd lockout. It's an *option*. If it's not optional, then that's the problem of the person who picked that kind of raiding. End of story.

Don't limit our choices so that you don't have to make one. And the choice he's giving me is 'run pug content with 60% pugs' instead of 'run 10-man content with friends'. How's the choice he has any more or less palatable than the one he would leave me with?

Lev, I guess you're saying that since he's a 'hardcore raider' then it's ok for him to shove me into pug-land with 15 people I don't even know, but he can't skip an optional lockout? No, just no.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Treck » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:55 pm

It "might" work for "casual" guilds, but for guilds allready raiding a few days a week, its going to burn people out faster i think.
Making people able to play more doesnt mean its better ^^
Some people just wanna play a bit less, this will make them feel they are forced to play more, making them very likely to just give up.
That, or they get geared twice as fast, and stop playing cuz they cant get any more gear :P
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby halabar » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:08 pm

Hrobertgar wrote:Are you so selfish that you would ask the progression guilds to basically slave away for weeks so you could get a minor convenience in raid scheduling on top of LFR and twice T11 & T12? REALLY?


LOL Really? Slaving?

We aren't asking hardcores to do anything. No one is.

What you are really asking for is a enforced cockblock to prevent you from burning yourselves out. Umm....

What if there were no lockout, and the raids reset daily?

It sounds like the real issue if for guilds who don't have the time to raid truly hardcore to have an artificial barrier that allows them to be "competitive" with the guilds that do raid 24/7.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Flex » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:10 pm

Treck wrote:It "might" work for "casual" guilds, but for guilds allready raiding a few days a week, its going to burn people out faster i think.


We "progression" raid two days a week simply because that's the most we can get ten people together. This change affects me none.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:25 pm

mavfin wrote:Hey, if it's too much work, no one's *forcing* you to use that 2nd raid lock that we will find convenient when running *10-man* content. You think it's OK to just dismiss me into 25-man pug LFR, when I want to run guild 10-man content, so you don't have to run a lockout *that you can ignore if you want anyway?* REALLY?

See, we can go back and forth with this all day. You're trying to limit my choices, and you're acting like you wouldn't have the choice to not use the lockout. You would. It would be *your choice* to use or not use an extra lockout. Oh, and if it's 'slaving away' you're doing it wrong. It's supposed to be fun.


Framing it as an issue of choice is disingenuous. You're ignoring several very real ramifications that such a change would have on a large number of raiding guilds. This wouldn't just affect the most hardcore of hardcore. It's not just a detriment to the top 100. Guilds from all corners of the raiding spectrum, world 50 and world 5000, will all feel additional pressure to raid more nights and clear the content multiple times to maximize loot intake. That's a decent bit of added stress, not to mention time commitment.

If you're really so bored or so constrained that you need 2 raid lockouts per week, level an alt and raid twice per week. I have 4 level 85 characters, with 3 more on the way. I raid 6/7H twice on two different characters in three nights, and clear normal Firelands in "ghetto alt" runs with the other two on off-nights. You can clear normal firelands with 10 alts that have nothing more than ZG/ZA gear if you have talent, and gearing up to that level takes very little time nowadays. There's already plenty of content for those of us that want more; we don't need the additional stress of feeling compelled to clear Firelands twice per week on our mains to keep up with progression.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:43 pm

halabar wrote:It sounds like the real issue if for guilds who don't have the time to raid truly hardcore to have an artificial barrier that allows them to be "competitive" with the guilds that do raid 24/7.


This is actually a game design paradigm. It's a way of putting everyone on an even playing field, so that players who do have the time to play 24/7 don't get a ridiculous advantage over those of us with jobs, families, and lives.

Players like Treck already get an advantage in that they can raid essentially 7 nights a week for progression. They clear content faster, and get the prestige and loot earlier. However, they can still only kill 7 bosses a week in Firelands on their mains. That keeps them from chain-clearing Firelands and being completely done with the tier in several weeks.

On the less extreme end, at my position (~world 500 25-man according to wowprogress), it means that my 2-night-a-week guild isn't at as big a disadvantage to a 3- or 4-night a week guild. They have more time to work on progression bosses, of course, but they're still capped at 7 bosses. If they could clear Firelands twice a week, while we were only able to do it once, they'd gain ground on us even faster (gear leads to faster progression, leads to more gear, etc.). If we're more skilled than they are, then we may be able to keep up or stay ahead of them in the rankings based on that skill.

The one-week raid lockout is essentially the "great equalizer," which gives you an even playing field. Think of it like ensuring that you only get 10 frames in bowling, so that someone who has time to play 11 frames doesn't get an advantage over you.
Last edited by theckhd on Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Flex » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:43 pm

theckhd wrote:If you're really so bored or so constrained that you need 2 raid lockouts per week, level an alt and raid twice per week.


That's as annoying as what you're accusing him of doing.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:46 pm

Flex wrote:
theckhd wrote:If you're really so bored or so constrained that you need 2 raid lockouts per week, level an alt and raid twice per week.


That's as annoying as what you're accusing him of doing.


That depends on perception. If you don't like leveling alts, then sure, it could be. But I'm not sure that there's a clear "winner" between "level more alts" and "go raid LFR." Neither is going to appeal to everyone.

Regardless, the point is that most people in this thread are making arguments based on what's good for their raid group. The "it gives us more choice" crowd is just in a situation where that choice happens to help them, even though that "choice" has a detrimental effect on more serious raiding guilds.

Few, so far, have made arguments based on game design principles. And one of those principles is balancing skill vs time investment as far as progression is concerned.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Levantine » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:49 pm

mavfin wrote:
Levantine wrote:But the choice you're giving him is "You can choose to be a hardcore raider, or not."


So it's ok to limit our choices...so that he can avoid making a choice himself? No.

No one's forcing anyone to use that 2nd lockout. It's an *option*. If it's not optional, then that's the problem of the person who picked that kind of raiding. End of story.

Don't limit our choices so that you don't have to make one. And the choice he's giving me is 'run pug content with 60% pugs' instead of 'run 10-man content with friends'. How's the choice he has any more or less palatable than the one he would leave me with?

Lev, I guess you're saying that since he's a 'hardcore raider' then it's ok for him to shove me into pug-land with 15 people I don't even know, but he can't skip an optional lockout? No, just no.


I should have realised that it's a brick wall I was trying to point something out to. Somehow you have this opinion that hardcore raiders don't deserve a say, and I'm pretty sure that's not something I can change in an internet argument so I'm not going to bother. What's good for one side is good for the other.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:50 pm

Hrobertgar wrote:
But then I'm farming lower level gear, in nerfed content


Actually, I find this to be a specious arguement. If lower level LFR gear and nerfed bosses are so bad, then by extension Hardmode is the only true content and people would be ashamed to run normal mode.
Well it's not a specious argument. The entire crux of not allowing 2 resets per week is social. It has no objective bearing since you don't have to do it and things stay the same. So given that, you acknowledge that some social aspects of game in particular the challenge, the competition, etc... cause enough peer pressure that people will actually play a game that they don't want to play, or leave their given guild to find a guild that is a better fit. Now extend that to the LFR system and the stuff you are actually recommending.

On top of that, you are recommending a system that forces one (vastly larger) group of people limited choice, over a system that provides choice for all, and doesn't have to change anything for anyone.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:56 pm

theckhd wrote:
Flex wrote:
theckhd wrote:If you're really so bored or so constrained that you need 2 raid lockouts per week, level an alt and raid twice per week.


That's as annoying as what you're accusing him of doing.


That depends on perception. If you don't like leveling alts, then sure, it could be. But I'm not sure that there's a clear "winner" between "level more alts" and "go raid LFR." Neither is going to appeal to everyone.

Regardless, the point is that most people in this thread are making arguments based on what's good for their raid group. The "it gives us more choice" crowd is just in a situation where that choice happens to help them, even though that "choice" has a detrimental effect on more serious raiding guilds.

Few, so far, have made arguments based on game design principles. And one of those principles is balancing skill vs time investment as far as progression is concerned.
Whoa, no I'm not doing that at all. I don't even play WoW.

It gives the exact same choice to everyone, so it's not really possible to make that claim. In fact the concern is that a portion of the "more serious" guilds will actually take that choice (so it's probably beneficial to them), otherwise there's no issue. It's also not merely more serious guilds that this is potentially detrimental for. It's really detrimental for guilds who don't want to raid more often but who will be expected to raid more often. That's going to affect both "serious" and "casual" guilds.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Flex » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:04 pm

theckhd wrote:
Flex wrote:
theckhd wrote:If you're really so bored or so constrained that you need 2 raid lockouts per week, level an alt and raid twice per week.


That's as annoying as what you're accusing him of doing.


That depends on perception.


No, being told how to play is as equally annoying no matter who is telling and what is being told ;p
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby mavfin » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:17 pm

Flex wrote:
No, being told how to play is as equally annoying no matter who is telling and what is being told ;p


Exactly. The hardcore claim that they can't take advantage of choices; i.e. if the choice exists, it's not a choice, but, their idea is to force 10-man casual guilds to do 25-man LFR with 15 people they don't even know. No, they still think they own the game and that everyone should dance to their tune. No. It IS a choice. If you have made social choices where you have to do those raid locks, that's *YOUR CHOICE TO DO SO*. Don't limit my choices just because you can't make yourself limit your own.

I mean, that's what this is all about. Some of us like the choices, but others want the choice taken away, so they don't have to make any more choices. You want Blizzard to not give you a choice, so you don't have to make choices yourself.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:49 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Well it's not a specious argument. The entire crux of not allowing 2 resets per week is social.


I would argue that it's not social at all. It's a game balance mechanic, and one that Blizzard understands very well. One week might seem like an arbitrary limitation, but it's not. They could very easily make the lockout 1 day, and let guilds raid Firelands 7 days a week if they wanted. They don't for a very good reason - it would be severely detrimental to the game, and destroy any sense that guilds are competing on an even playing field.

mavfin wrote:
Flex wrote:No, being told how to play is as equally annoying no matter who is telling and what is being told ;p

Exactly. The hardcore claim that they can't take advantage of choices; i.e. if the choice exists, it's not a choice, but, their idea is to force 10-man casual guilds to do 25-man LFR with 15 people they don't even know. No, they still think they own the game and that everyone should dance to their tune. No. It IS a choice. If you have made social choices where you have to do those raid locks, that's *YOUR CHOICE TO DO SO*. Don't limit my choices just because you can't make yourself limit your own.

I mean, that's what this is all about. Some of us like the choices, but others want the choice taken away, so they don't have to make any more choices. You want Blizzard to not give you a choice, so you don't have to make choices yourself.


No, you're putting words in my mouth. I never said it wasn't a choice. I'm saying that choice is bad for the game, in general. Not because I want to force you to do 25-man LFR, but because there is such a thing as "too much of a good thing." The shorter the raid lockout is, the more important time becomes as a factor in progression, and the less even the playing field becomes. If you don't think that matters, then you're overlooking a pretty crucial point of game design.

In addition, I didn't intend to tell you how to play, only to point out that you do have choices regarding raiding more often. They just don't happen to include raiding the current raid instance twice a week on the same toon, and hopefully never will for game balance reasons.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Lieris » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:09 pm

I sincerely hope this does not happen. I raid three nights a week, that is more than enough for me. I don't want to feel obliged to raid more than that or have to give up what could be progression time to instead do farm to be competitive: an additional reset worth of loot every week will help clear content quicker than spending our Sunday raid on our latest heroic progression boss (you are getting 4pc, legendaries etc. twice as fast). For those who can't get enough and want to run content multiple times during the week, play your alt.
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