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Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:24 am

Skye1013 wrote:Yet an earthquake isn't something we have any control over. We can move out of their typical ranges, or learn to deal with them.


Work-related injuries then?
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:26 am

Sagara wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:Yet an earthquake isn't something we have any control over. We can move out of their typical ranges, or learn to deal with them.


Work-related injuries then?

Honestly, this whole line of thought is kind of silly and fruitless.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Chicken » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:28 am

Treck wrote:
mavfin wrote:I find it amusing that a bunch of grown men/women keep insisting that they would be unable to limit their own play if Blizzard gives them more opportunities to raid.

Oh, and the 'slaving away' thing...if it's slaving away, you can stop. No one makes you raid.
Well, a lot of us play cuz we find it fun to raid.
Feeling obligated to play more than you want might make the game less fun to play, and i think thats what people are complaining about.

If Blizzard made the raids reset each and every day, would you find it fun raiding day out?
Or taking a more "casual" approach, nomatter what you would be bored with content within weeks.
As an example of this that most everyone should be familiar with... How much do you still enjoy running the two troll heroics? :wink:

WoW does currently have some issues with there being not enough content to keep (some) people playing, but the way to solve that issue should be through adding more different things to do... Allowing/encouraging people to do the same thing more often will just lead to people getting bored with the current content that much faster. It's also going to be harrowing for the "working on heroics" guilds; that's already about finding a balance between spending time on progression and clearing the normal content to get more upgrades, and shortening the reset timer messes with that balance pretty heavily: For my own guild it takes away entire days we can devote to working on heroic content while people still need upgrades from the normal content, further slowing our rate of progress even with the influx of extra upgrades. And that's not even due to competition or anything either, skipping chances at upgrades is never a smart thing to do if you're struggling to learn and clear new heroic content.

As far as I'm concerned removing the separate 10/25 lockouts after WotLK was one of the better things Blizzard did, and this is a worse way of implementing something very similar.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:31 am

Fridmarr wrote:Not sure if you've read all the posts in this thread, but obviously they don't. That's why I've asked repeatedly why they would suddenly feel compelled to raid more frequently when they are taking days off with bosses alive as it is. The answer has basically been that they want to keep up with those that have more playing time.

Well that's relative, and not at all very compelling. Casual guilds don't generally have as much playing time as the top 100 guilds yet if casual guilds asked for a 1.5 week lockout, the same people complaining about the 3-4 day lockout would be, contradictorily, up in arms.

Not compelling to you, perhaps. But I think that you're downplaying how important that perception of equality is to the raiding environment.

Fridmarr wrote:
Treck wrote:Well, a lot of us play cuz we find it fun to raid.
Feeling obligated to play more than you want might make the game less fun to play, and i think thats what people are complaining about.

And again I'd ask why you'd feel that obligation. I mean if you aren't raiding 7 days a week now with bosses still alive, then what's the motivation to suddenly attempt to squeeze in more raid days?

Keeping up with the Joneses. When you're in a raiding guild, whether it's world #1 or world #5000, there's an expectation that you'll do what you can to maximize your character to increase progression. The degree to which you're expected to do that varies from guild to guild - it might be as simple as capping valor for the week, or it might be as insane as grinding archaeology to get Zin'rokh. But the underlying idea is the same, trying to contribute as much as is reasonable to the team to help progression.

Halving the raid lockout period adds "farm Firelands twice a week" to that list. Is it a a "choice," as others have suggested? Of course. But it's one that many of us will feel obligated to take for progression. And in most cases, it won't be a case of an adult being unable to limit their time. It will be us forgoing other in-game activities that we enjoy, like raiding on alts, playing in Battlegrounds, Arena, etc.

I manage to raid 3 or 4 nights a week, sometimes 5 if we get an early, fast alt raid in on an off-night. I could definitely clear Firelands twice a week on Theck. But I don't want to. Part of what I enjoy about the game is raiding on multiple characters that have different play styles, and another part is maxing out Theck. Having more choices, in the form of being able to clear FL twice on Theck, will inevitably just mean I play fewer alts, which makes the game less fun for me. That choice actually gives me fewer options in-game.

As an analogy, what if they added more DPS talents (or for us, survivability talents) to the current talent trees. Sure, that might give you more choices, but it's only the illusion of choice. You're still going to optimize for the thing you do the most, which means giving up other utility talents to pick up as much DPS (or survivability) as you can. Does adding that choice make the game any deeper? Is it really a choice when the options are "optimize for your primary activity" or "have the flexibility/time to do other things?"

It also gives me a huge advantage over someone who can only manage to raid twice a week - a position I've been in before myself. Gearing up twice as fast will make a huge difference in the progression curve, and make the gap between "hardcore" raiders (as in, many nights a week) and "casual" raiders (as in, 1-2 nights a week) that much larger. I don't think that sort of gap is good for the game, because in the end it burns out the hardcore and frustrates the "casual" because they'll always be far behind.

(Note that I'm using "casual" in a very specific sense there, to mean "short on time" rather than any skill-based assessment. Let's not turn this into any more of a "hardcore" vs "casual" flamefest than it already is, folks.)

Fridmarr wrote:As far as guild relations, scheduling, and all of that goes, a change like this is no different than when raids went from 25 to 40. Guilds had to re-align to the to new raid size, and this caused guilds to break up and new guilds to form. It negatively affected all sorts of guilds from hardcore to casual, but that does not mean it's bad for the game.

Right, but again, that doesn't mean that we should be enthusiastic about doing that process again, especially when there are good arguments that this change is bad for the game in a deeper sense than that short-term turmoil.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:36 am

Fridmarr wrote:Honestly, this whole line of thought is kind of silly and fruitless.

I was going to respond, but this seems like a drop it and move on comment to me.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:40 am

Skye1013 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Honestly, this whole line of thought is kind of silly and fruitless.

I was going to respond, but this seems like a drop it and move on comment to me.

The underlying point was that "bad stuff already happens, so we shouldn't complain about it happening more often" isn't a compelling argument. It would at least have to be weighing the additional amount of "bad stuff" against some amount of "good stuff" that the change adds to the game. At this point though, I have trouble believing that the "good stuff" is very significant or compelling given the abundance of options already at ones disposal.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:41 am

But it's only "bad stuff" to people that feel compelled to "keep up with the Joneses."
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:50 am

theckhd wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Not sure if you've read all the posts in this thread, but obviously they don't. That's why I've asked repeatedly why they would suddenly feel compelled to raid more frequently when they are taking days off with bosses alive as it is. The answer has basically been that they want to keep up with those that have more playing time.

Well that's relative, and not at all very compelling. Casual guilds don't generally have as much playing time as the top 100 guilds yet if casual guilds asked for a 1.5 week lockout, the same people complaining about the 3-4 day lockout would be, contradictorily, up in arms.

Not compelling to you, perhaps. But I think that you're downplaying how important that perception of equality is to the raiding environment.
It's not compelling because it's inconsistent and selfish. It's basically saying, I don't want some people to be allowed to play more because then they'll progress faster than me, but I could care less about the people that play less than me.


Theck wrote:Keeping up with the Joneses. When you're in a raiding guild, whether it's world #1 or world #5000, there's an expectation that you'll do what you can to maximize your character to increase progression. The degree to which you're expected to do that varies from guild to guild - it might be as simple as capping valor for the week, or it might be as insane as grinding archaeology to get Zin'rokh. But the underlying idea is the same, trying to contribute as much as is reasonable to the team to help progression.

Halving the raid lockout period adds "farm Firelands twice a week" to that list. Is it a a "choice," as others have suggested? Of course. But it's one that many of us will feel obligated to take for progression. And in most cases, it won't be a case of an adult being unable to limit their time. It will be us forgoing other in-game activities that we enjoy, like raiding on alts, playing in Battlegrounds, Arena, etc.

I manage to raid 3 or 4 nights a week, sometimes 5 if we get an early, fast alt raid in on an off-night. I could definitely clear Firelands twice a week on Theck. But I don't want to. Part of what I enjoy about the game is raiding on multiple characters that have different play styles, and another part is maxing out Theck. Having more choices, in the form of being able to clear FL twice on Theck, will inevitably just mean I play fewer alts, which makes the game less fun for me. That choice actually gives me fewer options in-game.

As an analogy, what if they added more DPS talents (or for us, survivability talents) to the current talent trees. Sure, that might give you more choices, but it's only the illusion of choice. You're still going to optimize for the thing you do the most, which means giving up other utility talents to pick up as much DPS (or survivability) as you can. Does adding that choice make the game any deeper? Is it really a choice when the options are "optimize for your primary activity" or "have the flexibility/time to do other things?"

It also gives me a huge advantage over someone who can only manage to raid twice a week - a position I've been in before myself. Gearing up twice as fast will make a huge difference in the progression curve, and make the gap between "hardcore" raiders (as in, many nights a week) and "casual" raiders (as in, 1-2 nights a week) that much larger. I don't think that sort of gap is good for the game, because in the end it burns out the hardcore and frustrates the "casual" because they'll always be far behind.
The gap is pretty meaningless. Whether you cleared the instance in the first week or the fifth made absolutely no difference to my experience. Again, if you are already taking nights off with bosses up, it's because you and your guild have agreed that the time off is worth the cost of limiting progression by some amount. For some they may not have a choice because of real life responsibilities, for others they are just satisfied with the quality of life balance, or what have you. There will be some for whom part of the quality of life equation includes what their world/continent/server rank is and so there will be some level of guild turmoil. That's going to be a mostly short term thing as it has been with other changes that affected guilds similarly.
Theck wrote:Right, but again, that doesn't mean that we should be enthusiastic about doing that process again, especially when there are good arguments that this change is bad for the game in a deeper sense than that short-term turmoil.

But then start making those arguments, all I keep seeing are pretty selfish social arguments that I don't think stand up very well to scrutiny. If there are design issues that make this a bad idea, then that's a whole different ball game.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Chicken » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:52 am

Passionario wrote:Thought experiment: imagine if they'd done the opposite thing instead, and increased lockout to 2 weeks.

Would that be better or worse, and why?
I'd personally consider that better, though we'd probably reduce our amount of raiding days per week to accommodate the resets being doubled; we'd probably still spend more days per lockout than we do now, but we wouldn't double our amount of days raided. We'd probably go from 3-4 raid days per week to 2-3 raid days per week for that change, or from 3-4 per reset to 4-6 per reset. Mostly because we could already currently raid more if we really wanted to, but we don't actually want to since well, we had a bit of a problem with people (myself included) getting burned out from the separate lockouts back in WotLK meaning that we raided as much as we could rather than as much we should.

That's also the problem with 3 day resets for us; we could probably keep up something close to our current schedule, but that'd literally involve raiding every single day of the week. Cutting even one day out means we won't have time for a day in the reset period where we can focus purely on a new encounter.

Thinking about it, it'd be workable if things were to go back to the old system where resets simply happen "# days after last kill", but I doubt that'd happen due to all the exploits that were related to that system. So if it makes someone happy, yes I'm pretty much being selfish on this count, resets every 3 days is simply too short for us nine times out of ten since we're not interested in devoting our lives to this game even if we could.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:54 am

theckhd wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Honestly, this whole line of thought is kind of silly and fruitless.

I was going to respond, but this seems like a drop it and move on comment to me.

The underlying point was that "bad stuff already happens, so we shouldn't complain about it happening more often" isn't a compelling argument. It would at least have to be weighing the additional amount of "bad stuff" against some amount of "good stuff" that the change adds to the game. At this point though, I have trouble believing that the "good stuff" is very significant or compelling given the abundance of options already at ones disposal.

No...The underlying point is that there's already guild turnover that's arguably healthy for the game but certainly not detrimental. Therefore a short term increase (like we've seen before) is unlikely to also be bad for the game.

I'm 100% certain the added flexibility this provides would have been beneficial, in a real way, for my guild. At this point I have trouble believing the "bad stuff" is significant or even will even exist long term.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:55 am

Fridmarr wrote:And again I'd ask why you'd feel that obligation. I mean if you aren't raiding 7 days a week now with bosses still alive, then what's the motivation to suddenly attempt to squeeze in more raid days?

Firstly, and this is stating the obvious just to set up the next point, if they're raiding less than 7 days, it's usually because the schedule fits around their real life obligations, and possibly the people not wanting to spend too much of their time in game; if they're not clearing the instance, it's usually the bosses not being within their current ability to down within the time they have available.

Secondly, the reason they don't feel compelled to play more now, but might be if it was 2 lockouts a week, is that adding more time now would equal more time wiping on the progression bosses, and perhaps feeling as though they are wasting their time when they need better gear to kill them. Adding more time after the change would equal getting that gear, a quantifiable gain that would have them finding those bosses easier.

A raid group that is making slow progress on a new boss that better gear would help with would feel as though they are missing out if they did not take advantage of the second lockout, even if that just means they are continuing at their current, single lockout rate. That other people will raid more and take advantage of this creates the perception that the guild which does not is falling behind.

It's perfectly possible to just play as much as you like and enjoy doing so without thinking about it as a competition. But the perception of others progressing twice as fast, and having better access to gear, will make that difficult for a lot of people.

In a game where they're increasingly moving toward rewarding ability and away from rewarding purely time spent playing, this change seems like a step backwards. Apart from the fringe cases of mains raiding twice to fill groups that otherwise couldn't have gone, it doesn't increase the accessibility of raids, only the farmability of them.


Note, this would be a great change if being able to raid more often had no affect on your ability to defeat the content.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:55 am

Skye1013 wrote:But it's only "bad stuff" to people that feel compelled to "keep up with the Joneses."

No, it's bad stuff for everyone. You may be content to raid 2 nights a week and skip the second lockout. Several members of your guild may not, and may leave for a guild that takes advantage of it. That sort of guild turnover will become even more prevalent with this change, which means you'll also experience "bad stuff."

It's also "bad stuff" for Blizzard. Clearing raids twice a week means that guilds will be done with them earlier, and hunger for new content faster. New content that Blizz can't hope to provide on those time scales, given that they're already not able to keep up with 1-week raid lockouts. That's an issue that won't just affect top-100 guilds either: there are many guilds, including my previous one, that are essentially done with progression until 4.3. Sure, they're only 2/7H or so, but they're just not interested in pushing too hard on heroic modes. There are a lot of "normal-mode only" guilds in the same boat. Those guilds are suffering for attendance and recruitment right now, and being "done" with the content twice as fast will just exacerbate that effect.

The only positive that's been mentioned so far is flexibility, ala what Shoju has mentioned. But most guilds won't end up utilizing that flexibility the way Lurkers will, because most raiding guilds have more regular schedules and attendance policies. I'm sympathetic to what Lurkers is trying to do, but I also don't think we should delude ourselves into thinking they're in the majority. They're a very special case, and not one that I think Blizzard should be designing raid lockouts around.

In addition, I don't feel that flexibility is really needed. It's so trivial to level an alt to 85 nowadays that you could easily substitute a different class in for the second raid night. Or try heroic T11 content instead of wiping on normal T12. There are already a lot of options for guilds that don't have the same roster on both raid nights in one week. This change only helps those that have very irregular schedules and only one to raid on one specific character ever, with no exceptions. That's a pretty small subset of the population.

Let me also mention that I'm nearly 100% sure this will only affect previous tiers of content. In other words, it's going live in Taiwan/Korea to let them catch up to us (iirc they got 4.2 late?), but it won't go live until 4.3 for us, and will only affect T11/T12. I'm 100% fine with that as well - there's no reason to be extra restrictive about old content, and that will give guilds like Lurkers the flexibility they're looking for, since some of the T12H fights will still be very challenging and rewarding for them. My only concern about it is that guilds raiding 4.3 content may feel compelled to go back and clear FL twice a week to generate more legendaries, which I think is a bad idea.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:02 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Theck wrote:Right, but again, that doesn't mean that we should be enthusiastic about doing that process again, especially when there are good arguments that this change is bad for the game in a deeper sense than that short-term turmoil.

But then start making those arguments, all I keep seeing are pretty selfish social arguments that I don't think stand up very well to scrutiny. If there are design issues that make this a bad idea, then that's a whole different ball game.


I don't think the game design aspects of
  • finding the appropriate pacing for tiers of content
  • Psychological impact of an abbreviated raiding schedule when others are gearing up twice as fast (Kysen touched on this)
  • Psychological impact of competing on an "even playing field"
  • Attempting to reward exceptional skill rather than "most time spent raiding"
are selfish arguments. Social, perhaps, but a lot of game design (or at least, MMO design) has roots in social questions.

I sympathize that this might be beneficial to your guild somehow. It's detrimental to a lot more guilds than it helps, in my opinion. In my case, it will make the game feel more like work if I have to clear the latest tier twice a week on Theck instead of once, because those off-night alt raids are enjoyable to me. And when it becomes like work, I'm not likely to "choose" to raid one lockout a week and feel content, I'm likely to quit playing altogether.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Dantriges » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:08 am

Who are these Lurkers?

I agree with Theck on the issue of content. Quite a lot of people already get bored with current content after some time even if they don´t rush through the heroic content and reduce raid time. Tt will only accelerate that feeling and it seems that Blizard can´t deliver new stuff as soon as the old content gets stale.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Dantriges » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:19 am

theckhd wrote:I sympathize that this might be beneficial to your guild somehow.


He isn´t playing WoW. Mentioned it in this thread.

Fridmarr wrote:Whoa, no I'm not doing that at all. I don't even play WoW.
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