New talents MoP - tier 3

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Re: New talents MoP - tier 3

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:08 am

You can currently switch specs during the 2 min wait time after entering, before the game starts, in normal random queueing (not sure if that's true during RBGs as I've only done a couple of them.) I haven't tried that with glyphs, but it seems logical that you'd be able to do so with talents in the new system.
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Re: New talents MoP - tier 3

Postby Alantor » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:20 am

Respect to the talents, they do not give us much choice, there will be no customization because there are few talents and many musthave. They should give us talents at least every 10 lvls, it's an oversimplified system (i guess thinking in pvp.) Besides, i don't like how much underpowered talents are, don't give a performance boost, feel like Glyphs 2.0.

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Re: New talents MoP - tier 3

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:30 am

I disagree, I think many of the options they've shown have potential and aren't a clear "must have this one". Like the choice at level 60, which could be balanced so that for Holy Paladins all three options are very appealing. I'd say the choice between AD and Sacred Shield isn't a perfectly clear cut one either (SS may not be controllable, and might be leapfroggable, but it's also automatic and has 1/3rd the cooldown).

The first two tiers are completely about what you prefer and what the fight needs, they'll be swapped a lot.

Things could be improved on other tiers, but there's definate potential.
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Re: New talents MoP - tier 3

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:40 am

I only got to read half the Q&A transcript this morning, but in there they confirmed that Fist of Justice replaces baseline Hammer of Justice, effectively making the talent a 30 second cooldown reduction and range increase.
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Re: New talents MoP - tier 3

Postby Sagara » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:47 am

I like the concept of talents "upgrading" our techniques - it feels a lot like "Okay, i like X ability and I want some extra OOMPH out of it".

Dunno, sounds more natural, if you will: you get all you NEED, but you choose what you WANT.
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Re: New talents MoP - tier 3

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:51 am

Yeah, I think it's nice when, like in that case, they're rolling a couple of old talent points and a glyph into a single new talent. Makes getting the talent feel pretty significant.
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Re: New talents MoP - tier 3

Postby Kuripari » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:59 am

I agree, the idea that a talent really buffs a spell I currently use, means you can expect at least the weak version, but maybe I'm the person who has the buffed one. PvP will be very interesting I think, with that spectrum out there to play against. And talent switching is going to require some sort of item, in the way that changing glyphs requires Dust of Disappearance.
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Re: New talents MoP - tier 3

Postby Koatanga » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:23 pm

I was surprised and a bit disappointed to see them leaving us with only Flash of Light as a heal. The mana cost of FoL is quite prohibitive for non-Holy paladins.

I am levelling a new pally on a new server to play with some friends there. More than once I have had healer "issues" in dungeons that have left me to heal myself for a boss, or for a few pulls. I can get along alright healing myself with Holy Light, whereas if I was limited to only Flash of Light, I would quickly OOM and die.

I know at max level it's not a big deal, and I know that during a fight you don't generally get breaks long enough to use efficient heals as a tank, but it sure would be nice to have a more efficient heal to use when we just want to top ourselves up without trashing our mana.
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Re: New talents MoP - tier 3

Postby Kuripari » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:06 pm

I thought the same thing.. I get the reasoning behind wanting to leave us the quick one. Though to be honest I can't really understand taking away the other two. We aren't effective healers, even with all of them. Even really in holy gear with all of them. There is the selfless healer talent, but it requires giving up holy shield, which to all account on this board is already looking pretty interesting.

It also means we won't have access to crusade for the heals post fight while leveling up/grinding, meaning lots of wasted time spent munching on food.
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Re: New talents MoP - tier 3

Postby Koatanga » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:26 pm

I see I am not alone in getting a very "glyphy" feeling from many of these "talents".

I think talents, in this new, limited sense of the word, should give you abilities, and glyphs should impact how abilities behave.

For example, the current talent Hammer of Righteous gives you the ability to smash multiple things in the face. The glyph of the same name gives you more damage when you do.

The talent gives you the ability to do it; the glyph changes how the ability operates.

Holy Fist does not give you a new ability - it just shortens the cooldown of an existing ability. That, to me, is glyph behaviour, not talent behaviour.

I guess they reckon the amount of that cooldown change justifies it being a talent, but with only 6 talents to pick I reckon they could be a little more creative than just changing a cooldown. Repentance, as a talent, actually gives us a new ability - I have no issue with that.
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Re: New talents MoP - tier 3

Postby Levantine » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:08 pm

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Re: New talents MoP - tier 3

Postby Koatanga » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:15 pm

Levantine wrote:Improved Hammer of Justice says hi.

Yeah, but *slight* difference between 6 talent choices and 31+5=36 talent points.

I can understand not creating 36 different abilities for us to talent into currently, but when dealing with only 6 selections I reckon it's a bit more reasonable.

Prot currently has at least 10 distinct abilities that have nothing to do with reducing cooldown times or increasing damage of other distinct abilities, being JotJ, Sanctuary, HotR, SotR, Reckoning, Grand Crusader, Vindication, Holy Shield, Divine Guardian, and Ardent Defender. Six of those abilities are active button-push abilities.
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Re: New talents MoP - tier 3

Postby Flex » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:30 pm

Koatanga wrote:I was surprised and a bit disappointed to see them leaving us with only Flash of Light as a heal. The mana cost of FoL is quite prohibitive for non-Holy paladins.


Word of Glory, and there's a talent for that. Plus you can't expect them to design the game on players not performing their role properly can you?

Prot currently has at least 10 distinct abilities that have nothing to do with reducing cooldown times or increasing damage of other distinct abilities, being JotJ, Sanctuary, HotR, SotR, Reckoning, Grand Crusader, Vindication, Holy Shield, Divine Guardian, and Ardent Defender. Six of those abilities are active button-push abilities.


Your list hilights a bunch of talents that lots of reasonable people feel are relics of an old time. Not picking up JotJ, Sanctuary, Vindication, Holy Shield, Ardent Defender and Divine Guardian is simply doing your job wrong and aren't interesting or compelling choices.
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Re: New talents MoP - tier 3

Postby sahiel » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:06 pm

Flex wrote:
Koatanga wrote:Prot currently has at least 10 distinct abilities that have nothing to do with reducing cooldown times or increasing damage of other distinct abilities, being JotJ, Sanctuary, HotR, SotR, Reckoning, Grand Crusader, Vindication, Holy Shield, Divine Guardian, and Ardent Defender. Six of those abilities are active button-push abilities.


Your list hilights a bunch of talents that lots of reasonable people feel are relics of an old time. Not picking up JotJ, Sanctuary, Vindication, Holy Shield, Ardent Defender and Divine Guardian is simply doing your job wrong and aren't interesting or compelling choices.

That's an interesting comment, I can't say I've ever heard it expressed anywhere else before so it stood out. I'm not sure it can come across as anything other than me saying 'prove it' (although it's certainly not meant that way), but I really would be interested in reading some more discussions on the issue if you can point me that way.

The fact that a number of those talents are effectively mandatory if you want to do your job well is certainly weak game design, required talents should never be a choice, or if they are a choice, they shouldn't be mandatory for effective gameplay. But I've not heard anyone expressing a view that such things are 'relics' of an old time, in fact, a number of them were introduced in their current form, in Cataclysm so I'm not sure how they would qualify as such.

The very fact that most of the talents or abilities have undergone significant change since they were originally introduced would, to me, class them as they very opposite of a relic, I find it a positive thing that they're constantly being updated to fit into the different, newer model that Blizzard is using and moving further away from the "optional, but not really" times of earlier. Whilst they may certainly need additional changes to make them into true choices that are equal and interesting, that doesn't mean they should be removed, which, forgive me if I'm wrong, but is certainly the impression I get from your choice of words. I believe it's abilities such as these that provide a strong idea of the Paladins many strengths and help add to the iconic feel of the class.
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Re: New talents MoP - tier 3

Postby Koatanga » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:37 pm

Perhaps the concept that you have talents that you must take within your specialisation is what he's referring to as relic, when viewed from the MoP model. The talent tree is available to all specs, and the "must have" talents from the current trees should theoretically be given to you as a part of your specialisation, like how we get Avenger's Shield for being Prot.

Regardless, I am not saying that the abilities I listed should be part of the new talent tree. Rather, I am pointing out that I would like to see the talent tree give us abilities, as in procs or button-pushes, rather than passive enhancements like cooldown reductions. I listed what I thought were 10 proper abilities, not enhancements to existing abilities, as opposed to the "Improved Hammer of Justice says hi" school of thought.

Cooldown reduction isn't as compelling as new, fun, active-use/proc things. I see enhancements as being more the realm of glyphs than talents, given that there are so few (6) talents that we can choose.

I reckon if they can come up with 10 distinct abilities in our prot tree, they ought to be able to come up with 18 for us to choose from over all trees, particularly if they are like the "movement tier" where they all increase movement, just under different circumstances. One idea, movement, gave them 3 different abilities. Only 15 left to sort without having to resort to cooldowns or buffs of existing abilities. A couple more tri-fold ideas like that and they are pretty-much home free.
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