All about sports

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Re: All about sports

Postby twinkfist » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:05 pm

carlos ruiz suspended 25 games for PEDS...unreal. well, at least i have the eagles debacle to keep me busy.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:11 pm

twinkfist wrote:carlos ruiz suspended 25 games for PEDS...unreal. well, at least i have the eagles debacle to keep me busy.


Well, you can always watch the Flyers... oh wait!
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:54 am

twinkfist wrote:carlos ruiz suspended 25 games for PEDS...unreal. well, at least i have the eagles debacle to keep me busy.


The Suspensions was for Amphetamines, which means to be suspended it has to be the second time that they have tested positive. The positive test for amphetamines leads to a penalty of more testing. The second failed test is the 25 game suspension.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:28 pm

If qbs are so concerned about getting concussions, how come I don't see more of them wearing the Great Gazoo type-helms that the Manning bros normally sport?

Just curious~
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:11 am

WARNING.

THE FOLLOWING POST IS A RANT. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ IT, THIS IS YOUR CHANCE TO MOVE ON NOW.

Indian's GM Shapiro tells fan if he's only buying a ticket to see the Indian's Win, "Don't Come". That's right. He really said it. Taped, to be aired on local TV. In the spot, they didn't take callers, as it was pre-taped, and aired later. Instead the host promoted it, and they answered Fan E-mails.

The Article wrote:...but there is no dispute from anyone involved about Shapiro’s answer to a critical emailer, who asked why they should renew their season tickets for 2013.

Shapiro told the emailer that if their only reason for purchasing was to see the Indians win, “Don’t come.”



Oh boy. This right here, gets the blood pumping. I'm going to pull out some more excerpts and explain. This part made me say dafuqdidhejussay?

Shapiro, when contacted yesterday, clarified his stance, but largely defended his comment to the disgruntled season-ticket holder.

“I told him if the sole reason, the only reason, for renewing is predicated on us winning, then they shouldn’t come,” Shapiro said. “I stand by that. Baseball has to mean more than just being a fan when you win.


No Shapiro. It doesn't have to mean more than that. ESPECIALLY in an area still trying to crawl itself out of the hole it died in economically. For fans who have listened to the song and dance, we are tired of being fans when you aren't winning, and then sold the "What If", and "We're a young team, we'll get it together in the next few years". We want to see continual success. You know, like we remember in the 90's. When the Owners wallet wasn't firmly planted in his clenched asscheeks.

Shapiro wrote:“No where are we spending more of our time, more of our energy or more money in trying to win. We all understand that the single-most important thing in baseball is winning and losing. But we are always going to have cycles to when we can win.”


Some fans would argue that this should read: "No where are we spending more of our time, more of our energy, or more of our money, than in trying to put on super awesome Fireworks Shows every Friday Night after the game."

The Article wrote:This is a familiar refrain, tiresome to Indians’ fans.

Call it the, Small-Market, Can’t-Sign-or-Retain-Marquee-Free-Agent Blues, and no one sings it with more regularity than Shapiro, the Dolan ownership’s articulate front man.


This idea that small market doesn't win, and that you can't do it in small markets consistently doesn't work, when according to the rankings by MLB, the Tampa Bay Rays are the #28 market by size in the league. They have been winning CONSISTENTLY and just signed their prized Third Baseman to a FREAKING $100 MILLION DOLLAR EXTENSION. Ryan Braun seems to have gotten a big deal from the Brewers, who are #27 market by size in the league. Joey Votto just got a HUGE DEAL from the Reds, and they are the #26 Market by size, and are a team on the rise. Cleveland is the #21 Market by size in the MLB. #21. Is that in the top half? No. Is that in the bottom 1/3? Yes. The question becomes though, if we can't win consistently because we are in the bottom 1/3 of market size in the league, How do you explain the Tampa Bay Rays, who in the bottom 10%? Or the Brewers? Or the Reds? Maybe it isn't a problem of market size, but rather a problem with the people who spend the small market dollars?

The Indians grouse privately about fans’ allegiance to the Browns, and how the Tribe has won more recently and more prolifically than the comedy act which has played out for 14 seasons down on the Lakefront.


Well, a couple of things here.

First: If you think that our allegiance to the Browns comes without Screaming and Yelling and cursing about it, you need to unplug your ears, and uncover your eyes.

Second: There are 8 Browns home games a year, VS 81 Indians Home Games a year. Going to a Browns game is a SPECTACLE. One that enthralls a Browns fan. It's a day long experience from tailgating, to the after hours bars and what not. You can't create that 81 times a year.

Third: I am pretty sure that all Browns and Indians fans would be happy if the spectacles, and the giveaways, and the fireworks (which are both really cool, and incredibly excessive) went away, and that money went into putting a better product on the field. I'd go to the game, and be ok with not getting the chincy cheap ass hat if it meant that we kept the good players, signed them to long term deals, and really worked hard to build a good franchise. Either sport.

Shaprio wrote:{This comment was in speaking about memories, and "other things" that baseball does as an experience}
“That has to be a part of why you come to games,” Shapiro said. “Even the best teams lose 62 times in a season. If you base your decision to come to the game on whether we win or lose, don’t come. You’re missing out. You’re missing out on what baseball is all about, and I’m fine with that.


Let me borrow a line from one of my favorite movies.

Well, allow me to retort. It has been why we have been coming to games you dumb shit. We aren't talking about the Indians miraculously going 81-0 at home. We are talking about a winner. A team that goes to the post season. A team that is constantly in the mix. A team that gives us a reason to continue to want to come to the ballparks and make those memories.

Shaprio wrote:
“I don’t begrudge our fans for not coming. That portion which won’t come if we don’t win, I’m OK with that. I don’t call them front-runners or fair-weather fans. I’m confident we will win them back, but I feel sorry for them because they’re missing out on some of what makes baseball special.”


You shouldn't be ok with it. No one should be ok with losing part of their customer base because of a bad product. If I had that attitude, I would be FIRED. And if you did call us Front-runners, or Fair-Weather Fans, we'd probably bring a riot to your office. We are fans who have spent out entire lives as Indians Fans. We've had the ups and downs. We've had the 80's, We've had the 90's, and we've had the in between years of the 00's. The problem is, unlike the 90s where we saw a real drive and determination to make the team better, we see complacency, and "oh well, we just have to try and catch "lightning in a bottle" with a group of young guys, because we can't compete with the big boys. The attitude has changed. And part of that attitude is you Mr. Shapiro.


I read this story, and I'm done. The last little piece of me that had hope in the Indians has died. The last piece of me that had hope that Francona was going to be a force of change, and hope, and a chance to turn around a franchise that has ended up rudderless and drifting through the sea of excuses and "there's always next year" just jumped off the I-480 Bridge. Shapiro, and his woe is me "We're a small market" boohoo fest just killed it.

Don't worry Shapiro. You wont have to see me at any games next year.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:28 am

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Wow... I hope the Indian fans vote with their wallet... makes me wonder if Shapiro is working for Rachel Phelps...
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Re: All about sports

Postby halabar » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:35 am

Well, reminds me of some of the tirades I heard about the Parking Lot Attendant, until this past year when the Dodgers were finally sold. Fans voting with the wallet do make a difference.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:49 am

I think the problem is that he is banking on this sort of romantic appeal or charm baseball is supposed to have but doesnt really exist anymore... Maybe the minor league teams do, but not mlb teams, and specially not the indians... Maybe chicago cubs, but thats cuz theyre into s&m
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:44 am

Klaudandus wrote:I think the problem is that he is banking on this sort of romantic appeal or charm baseball is supposed to have but doesnt really exist anymore... Maybe the minor league teams do, but not mlb teams, and specially not the indians... Maybe chicago cubs, but thats cuz theyre into s&m


I think that baseball still has a romantic appeal, but like you said, unless the team is the Cubs, a prolonged time of "not winning" and being a joke (and the basis of a comedy about sucking as an MLB Franchise) kills the romantic appeal.

To then come out and say "Yeah... Don't buy tickets if you are expecting us to win" really just doesn't sit well with the fanbase.

If a GM said that in LA, or NY, or somewhere like that, he'd be on the chopping block with management soon. Here? I'm sure the Dolan's gave him a good ol' pat on the back, and an 'atta boy! for telling the fans that they don't intend to content.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Koatanga » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:06 pm

To be honest, if the ONLY thing the guy is interested in is if the team wins, then he really shouldn't go to the games. He should watch it on TV, or just read the score in the morning paper.

You buy tickets to the game because you like the ambience of the ballpark and the experience of being there in person. Sometimes the team is going to win; sometimes it's going to lose. No coach of any team can guarantee a victory every time.

If I was the coach and some punk asked me if I planned to win any games next season, so he can decide whether or not to buy tickets, I'd have much the same reaction as the coach did. Get your fair-weather ass out of the stadium. If I'm the coach I have my job, identity, passion, income, and future all invested in the team. If some punk needs a win before he invests his money on a game, I have no time for him. He can take his sense of entitlement over to the Yankees for all I care.

I completely understand where the coach is coming from.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:08 pm

I'm thinking what the guy meant with win is getting to the playoffs at least -- i dont think they indians have had a winning season since 2007 or so (maybe 2009)

the whole thing about the ambiance and all that is ok for the person that goes to the home games possible 10 times a year... a season ticket holder wants to hear the team is putting effort in actually winning, he wants to be told that -- shapiro basically told him it was better for him to save himself several thousand dollars because the indians are in rebuild mode, yet again
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:18 pm

Shoju wrote:To then come out and say "Yeah... Don't buy tickets if you are expecting us to win" really just doesn't sit well with the fanbase.

Well to be fair, from what you wrote of his comment that sounds like a really unfair characterization. His comment was boneheaded, simply because he's got to know how that's going to be taken. When you are losing, people look for any reason to jump on you, and that certainly qualifies.

In my opinion, fandom should mean more than just winning. If you can't be a fan when the team is losing, then you aren't a fan. However, ownership has a responsibility to win, poor decisions warrant criticism, and a team isn't a perpetual loser without making more than its fair share of poor decisions. Being a contender at some level makes the product on the field far more compelling, and if a team can't contend at all year after year, then they should expect to see poor attendance and the shouldn't be complaining about it, they should be putting out a more compelling product. That is what that question was really about, and Mr. Shapiro's answer was a poor copout.

As a Pirates fan, suffering from 20 straight years of not only not being a contender, but not even having a single winning season, I can certainly understand the frustration.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:43 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Shoju wrote:To then come out and say "Yeah... Don't buy tickets if you are expecting us to win" really just doesn't sit well with the fanbase.

Well to be fair, from what you wrote of his comment that sounds like a really unfair characterization. His comment was boneheaded, simply because he's got to know how that's going to be taken. When you are losing, people look for any reason to jump on you, and that certainly qualifies.

In my opinion, fandom should mean more than just winning. If you can't be a fan when the team is losing, then you aren't a fan. However, ownership has a responsibility to win, poor decisions warrant criticism, and a team isn't a perpetual loser without making more than its fair share of poor decisions. Being a contender at some level makes the product on the field far more compelling, and if a team can't contend at all year after year, then they should expect to see poor attendance and the shouldn't be complaining about it, they should be putting out a more compelling product. That is what that question was really about, and Mr. Shapiro's answer was a poor copout.

As a Pirates fan, suffering from 20 straight years of not only not being a contender, but not even having a single winning season, I can certainly understand the frustration.



Unfair characterization?
No, this is something that he's been saying for a while. Since the Dolan's took over really. We can't spend the money. We're a small market. We have to make this work with young players, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It's the same song and dance coming from the Front office, the problem is, it isn't a small market thing. The Brewers, The Reds, and The Tampa Bay Rays all play in smaller markets than the Indians, and they have found a way to put together a team that is exciting. The Indians? Groom a couple of middling stars, and surround them with aging, overpriced even at what the indians pay for them free agents, and expect to make it. We've been sold on the extreme value there was in the contracts of Jason Michaels, David Delucci, Johnny Damon, and Casey Freaking Kotchman. These are the free agents that they have surrounded the nucleus of the team with, and have expected that they are going to compete.

We keep hearing that they trade away the young talent to get value back towards the end of the contracts, because they can't resign them. REALLY? Why? Because they don't want to play for the ownership? Or because we can't afford them. Judging by Ryan Braun, Evan Longoria, and Joey Votto's contracts, it's a front office problem, not a "We can't afford them" problem.

It's not an unfair characterization. It's finally having enough of hearing the same old song and dance, and then to hear him say "If you are buying tickets to see us win, then maybe you shouldn't come"

Not a Fan when they aren't winning?
Man, I've been an Indians fan since the mid 80's. Baseball was my first sporting love. My First Indians game I ever attended was in 1986 when Roger Clemens blew the doors off the indians. I was a HUGE fan through the 80's when the Indians SUCKED. Lets see. Since I've Been an Indians Fan. 1985 - to current, they have had 16 losing seasons. They have had 11 Winning Seasons, and 7 playoff appearaances. They made it to the Series twice. They played hard. And if they had put forth an effort to continue to get better, to continue to keep players, to continue to do ANYTHING except sing the same old song about how they can't do what other small market teams are doing, I might be ok with it. I was ok with the 90's team coming to an end and starting to build up again. It happens. That team got old. Then, in the late 00's we started having success, we started making serious progress. But OH! NO! We can't keep ANY of those players. We can't AFFORD THEM. No Indians fan believes that we could have kept them all. CC, Cliff Lee, VMart, You could even consider Peralta part of that group I guess. No. We couldn't keep the talent. Instead, we kept the oft injured, and nigh untradable centerfield, and the 1b/DH who has had a steady decline in production since PED testing ramped up.

Indians fans understand the ebb and flow of teams, and we understand the money enough to understand we aren't going to be like the Yankees and in it every years. The problem, is since the Jacobs Brothers sold the team. Since 2000, We've been fed this line of BS about tough times, and small markets, and trying to win with youth, and trading the youth before they walk away and we get nothing for them. Since 2000, We have had 4 winning seasons, 2 playoff appearances, 8 losing seasons, and all we've heard is what this article talks about. It's frustrating. It's tiresome. And I, like a lot of Indians fans are done. The current regime of ownership and front office people seem more happy with cashing the revenue sharing checks, and making a marginal effort to put something that fans will label as "Progress" on the field, and raking in the profit.

It's frustrating. And then to hear a General Manager come out and tell a fan "Don't Come", and then to defend his remarks, is the last straw. I can catch the few Nationally Televised Rays games, the Rays when they are in Cleveland, and just follow them, and at least I can be content in knowing that they are a team that is doing their dead level best to win. I can't say that the Indians give me the opinion that they are doing everything they can to win.


(Their Record by year since I can remember being a fan. used as a reference. )
1985 - 60 - 102
1986 - 84 - 78
1987 - 61 - 101
1988 - 78 - 84
1989 - 73 - 89
1990 - 77 - 85
1991 - 57 - 105
1992 - 76 - 86
1993 - 76 - 86
1994 - 66 - 47 (Strike)
1995 - 100 - 44 (Strike)
1996 - 99 - 62
1997 - 86 - 75
1998 - 89 - 73
1999 - 97 - 65
2000 - 90 - 72
2001 - 91 - 71
2002 - 74 - 88
2003 - 68 - 94
2004 - 80 - 82
2005 - 93 - 69
2006 - 78 - 84
2007 - 96 - 66
2008 - 81 - 81
2009 - 65 - 97
2010 - 69 - 93
2011 - 80 - 82
2012 - 68 - 94



EDIT:
Klaudandus wrote:I'm thinking what the guy meant with win is getting to the playoffs at least -- i dont think they indians have had a winning season since 2007 or so (maybe 2009)

the whole thing about the ambiance and all that is ok for the person that goes to the home games possible 10 times a year... a season ticket holder wants to hear the team is putting effort in actually winning, he wants to be told that -- shapiro basically told him it was better for him to save himself several thousand dollars because the indians are in rebuild mode, yet again


This is what most people around here are taking from it. Yet again rebuilding. Yet again shedding players to get new young players. You are going to tell a Season Ticket Holder to not come?

Indians Season Tickets Aren't exactly cheap unless you are sitting in the bleachers, Mezzanine, or Upper Box. Those packages are all 1250 or less per seat. And lets be honest here. How many people do you know that only have 1 season ticket? Most often, people have 2 season tickets.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Teranoid » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:29 am

Hey look someone's trying to dethrone Jeffrey Loria as the king idiot of Major League Baseball.

"Don't support us and expect for us to win" Holy shit how stupid can you be to say this in public?
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:45 am

Funny it would take someone called Dolan to do that

Gooby plz
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