All about sports

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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:11 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:The NFL is racking billions in profit... they claim they hold player safety above everything else, but its them being miserly that is causing safety concerns (DHB is a good example)

What? You're going to have to explain that one.


Darrius Heyward-Bey, you know, the guy smothered by the Steelers, unconscious and all for several minutes... because the scab refs have been somewhat lax on defenseless receiver hits.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:16 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:The NFL is racking billions in profit... they claim they hold player safety above everything else, but its them being miserly that is causing safety concerns (DHB is a good example)

What? You're going to have to explain that one.


I think, and I could be wrong, that he is saying the replacement refs lack of knowledge of the game, and lack of "good flags" has led to the players playing harder, and trying to get away with more. It has been noted by several people, including Mike Golic, Herm Edwards, Chris Carter, Troy Aikman, Mark Schlereth, and a few other former players, that the games that we are seeing are showing a distinct lack of control.

And that because the refs have lost control of the games, player safety is taking a hit. Sure, that play could have happened with the real refs on the field. But, you could argue that more people are going back to unsafe hitting practices because things aren't being officiated well. Look at what Golden Tate did at the end of the Seahawks game. What would have happened had Shields fallen into the other player and torn out his knee? You could argue that he took the chance at a dangerous pass interference because they hadn't been calling it, which led to what could have been a dangerous play, where someone could have gotten injured.

Like I said, I could be wrong, but I'm interpreting his words based on what I've heard a lot of sportscasters and former players say in a similar vein.

I personally feel the same way. The games are losing control, and you are seeing more and more violent contact, tripping, shoving, clipping, blocks in the back, as the games get into the later quarters, because the players are seeing what the refs aren't calling. And if the refs aren't calling it, you do it, because the goal is winning right?
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:17 am

Are you seriously suggesting that Ryan Mundy purposely hit him high because of who was officiating?
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:18 am

Fridmarr wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that Ryan Mundy purposely hit him high because of who was officiating?


There is evidence to suggest that players are doing so. Yes.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:21 am

Shoju wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that Ryan Mundy purposely hit him high because of who was officiating?


There is evidence to suggest that players are doing so. Yes.


There were comments on how some teams were training while practice team players were holding them and such, because they know the refs wont make the calls on that... so yeah, the players have been pushing the envelope, testing what they can get away with because the officiating is weak, and playing fully expecting that.

So yeah, player safety taking a hit is collateral damage to the whole ref lockout.

Mundy's hit might not been have been entirely on purpose, but that officiating is spotty at best basically meant he would take a gamble on the hit and see if he could get away with it.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:58 am

I heard some of the comments from a few of those guys, I'm not sure that's a fair characterization because they did qualify those comments. That argument (along with some of the others) just has the feel to me that "it's been said so often it must be true". Like the whole integrity of the game line. I'm not even sure the people saying it half the time understand what that even means. I'm pretty skeptical of the player safety narrative because I don't really think the logic lines up and no one has really pointed at anything concrete.

The bulk of the complaints about the officials is that they've been too aggressive with their calls on some of those fouls you point out. I don't think for one second that Tate pushed off because of the replacement officials, especially given how many PI penalties were being called in that game. I think he pushed off because he needed to, and it wasn't called because as the commentators pointed before the play, PI is almost never called in those scrums on hail mary plays even though it often occurs.

Have they called all the illegal hits? No, they've missed some, even some that probably would have been called by the regular refs. They are still calling those penalties though. On top of that the fines and suspensions are still happening either way. So I don't see much of a motivation for players to start head hunting. Missed calls on illegal hits happens fairly often, it's not at all unusual for a player to be fined for a hit that was not penalized. I happen to think that the DHB hit was fairly difficult to see as well, because Mundy and another Steeler collided during the hit. I don't think it had anything whatsoever to do with the replacements.

Chop blocks...as if the regular refs ever call those. That's a constant complaint from players, if you watch the film breakdown of the Steelers vs Ravens opening game last season you'll see quite a few that were not called (and caused injury). Of course the league rules do allow them when it occurs by two lineman who are next to each other. That's one that I could see players trying to do more often, but I don't know that they have. I think we would have heard a lot more about it specifically it it was going on. Teams will complain about that pretty quick during a game, so it's hard to imagine a team getting away with it for long. That's one penalty that the speed of the game wouldn't really impact all that much.

I do think the games are more chippy. I think that's part of the whole attitude the player/coaches/commentators have and the refs and the league need to get control of that. At this point I think that is a lost cause unless the NFL starts suspending/fining players for it (which would suck). At the same time, I don't think it's a particular threat to player safety, but it certainly hurts the product.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:03 am

Shoju wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that Ryan Mundy purposely hit him high because of who was officiating?


There is evidence to suggest that players are doing so. Yes.

First what evidence?

Second why would you believe Mundy is guilty because of what someone else did? Have you seen the play in question?
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:52 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Shoju wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that Ryan Mundy purposely hit him high because of who was officiating?


There is evidence to suggest that players are doing so. Yes.

First what evidence?

Second why would you believe Mundy is guilty because of what someone else did? Have you seen the play in question?


A couple of days ago, there was a Yahoo "Shutdown Corner" (I think, may have been another sports article that popped up in my yahoo sports feed) article that listed teams that were doing as Klau has mentioned. They are using practice time more and more as a way to play through it, to push more for it.

Yes. I saw that hit. I said players, not Mundy specifically.

For more evidence that it is happening, Go back and look at

Patriots/Ravens
St. Louis / Washington
Raiders/Steelers

Each of those games can show a clear escalation of hitting / violence / escalating confrontations as the games have moved from beginning to end. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to watch the games and see what it happening.

The refs are in over their heads. It isn't their fault. The NFL ill prepared them for the task at hand. They put rookie crews together to go work these games, because of the lockout. You would never see this many rookie officials at any other time. To top it off, these rookies aren't even "the best of the not NFL Officials" They are guys who worked High School Games, DIII College Football, Got fired from the LFL (God I love abbreviating it like that).

They aren't prepared for the speed of the pro game. There is no "senior official" on the field. There are just rookie crews, who are losing control of the games, and it is causing escalation. Not just in the games, but from week to week. Each week the games have gotten worse.

I've probably griped about the refs too much, but it really isn't their fault. They are surely trying as hard as they can, which is why I blame the NFL. They locked out the "real" refs, and then turned not to the "next best man", but to the guys who "would" do it. And when they turned to them, they didn't do their due dilligence.

I don't want to mock the LFL too much, but it is clearly an inferior league to the nfl in terms of quality of play, athletes, and what not. They didn't even get "the top refs" from that league. They got the guys who got fired.

That doesn't make them bad people, just.... "not good officials". I'm sure I would enjoy having a beer at the local pub with them.

I have to disagree with you when you say that this isn't hurting the "Shield" or the "integrity of the game" or that "It isn't affecting player safety".

The fact that we are all debating how sucktastic it has been is a reflection on the "Shield", the "Brand". It looks bad. Depending on what definition of "integrity of the game" you want to use, you could make a compelling argument that it is doing damage to it, and by not being able to keep the games under control, the problems are escalating as the game goes on, and people are going to get hurt. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that some dude speared some defenseless receiver in mid air and broke his back.

It could mean that some idiot receiver has seen that they aren't calling Offensive Pass Interference, and he checks some guy from behind, sending him spiraling, and he blows out a knee landing funny.

Before, we said "Nothing will happen until the refs cost someone a game" Well that happened, and the front page sports story today, is that the league and the Ref Union are "REALLY CLOSE" to a deal.

Right now we are saying "well, they haven't gotten someone hurt yet." Let's not find out what happens when we can't say that anymore.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Flex » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:13 am

three things in the Ref lockout are issues:
1) NFL wants accountability to fire refs that don't meet a quality standard.
2) Refs want their pensions.
3) Refs want an 8% raise NFL wants a 2.5% raise.

Refs cave on 1, NFL caves on 2 and all current refs retain their pensions and new refs get the buy in plan and the meet in the middle on the third.
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Re: All about sports

Postby halabar » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:38 am

Shoju wrote:
halabar wrote:LOL at all the columnists raging about the NFL and the refs, and then in the fine print they put that the refs still want a pension that full time employees don't get.

I firmly believe that the NFL would double their salaries if they would give up on the pension demand and back down on the "farm team".



I think the thing that bothers me more than the NFL refs wanting the pension plan, is that the NFL has (your words not mine) Full Time Employess who don't.


Really, who gets fully-funded guaranteed pensions like what the Refs have now these days? no one. NFL wants to give them a 401k like everyone else.

I have NO sympathy for the refs on that.
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Re: All about sports

Postby halabar » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:44 am

Flex wrote:three things in the Ref lockout are issues:
1) NFL wants accountability to fire refs that don't meet a quality standard.
2) Refs want their pensions.
3) Refs want an 8% raise NFL wants a 2.5% raise.

Refs cave on 1, NFL caves on 2 and all current refs retain their pensions and new refs get the buy in plan and the meet in the middle on the third.


I think it's more the Refs cave on #1 and #2, and the NFL would sweeten #3 even more.

You're dealing with a league where the players don't even have guaranteed contracts, and the Refs have sweetheart pension deals?
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:01 pm

That's not evidence, it's just conjecture. That's fine, the lack of evidence isn't really indicative of anything, but I was curious if there was something I missed. Also, practicing to deal with holds, which to be fair are being called about as regularly as ever, is a far, far cry from suggesting that players are head hunting or doing other things to compromise safety because the regular refs aren't there.

I was asking specifically about Mundy. That example was cited to be a good indicator of the player safety issue, so that is what I was asking about. The implication being that he must have been head hunting specifically because the refs were replacements, which I find to be ridiculous if you've seen the play.

Again, I think for most of the games played, there hasn't really been an issue on the calls themselves. The management of the game is a problem in most games, but I don't think that it's one that can't be overcome. That said, I do think the league has lost control of this situation, and the only way to quell it is to bring back the regular officials. I'm just worried that when those guys come back and make several terrible calls a game (and they will) and bad calls that cost teams games (and they will) that this behavior from the coaches, players, and commentators may start up again.

I think attempting to correlate a PI burt being called (particularly when the complaint has been the exact opposite on both sides) to a player safety issue is a massive stretch to say the least.

I never believed that a game in which a bad call cost someone a game was going to cause the NFL to rethink this issue. That's not uncommon either, in one season the Steelers alone got three letters in three consecutive weeks from the NFL admitting such errors had taken place.

I don't disagree with you at all about the brand or shield, no question that has been hurt because of all of this. When I say integrity of the game, I mean just that. I don't think the calls are so bad that the games are regularly being decided by the refs. I don't think there is any indication that the refs are making bad calls on purpose. By and large, the players are deciding the outcomes as they should be. I don't think that there has been any indication that the refs are on the take or anything like that. I think the refs are doing the best that they can, which isn't all that much different than the normal refs, and I think the league is doing what they can to prepare these officials and train them up on their mistakes.

If the standard is no bad calls, or no bad calls that affect the outcome of the game, then there never has been any integrity in the NFL. But relative to previous years, I think the standard of officiating is down, but it certainly has not erased the integrity of the game.

Flex That seems reasonable enough to me. Hopefully they finally have the motivation to get this done.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:44 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Again, I think for most of the games played, there hasn't really been an issue on the calls themselves.


Are you watching games? Did you watch the Monday Night Game? And if you did, are you saying that with a straight face? That game was AWFUL. Look at just the last 3 minutes of the 4th Quarter alone. A Bad Roughing the QB Call. A PI call that went on the Defense, when it should have been the Offense. A Missed OPI on the last play of the game. And then, the super awesome Russell Wilson to MD Jennings Interception that allowed Golden Tate to score the winning touchdown. The end of that game was the poster child for the worst officiated 15 minutes of sports in history.

I think attempting to correlate a PI burt being called (particularly when the complaint has been the exact opposite on both sides) to a player safety issue is a massive stretch to say the least.


Did you watch the play? Did you see Golden Tate shove him into another player at the beginning of a scrum for the ball? You're right. that behavior OBVIOUSLY couldn't have injured someone... It never happens when players are running down the sidlines, or on Kick Returns. They just have those rules there for nothing....

I never believed that a game in which a bad call cost someone a game was going to cause the NFL to rethink this issue. That's not uncommon either, in one season the Steelers alone got three letters in three consecutive weeks from the NFL admitting such errors had taken place.


Well, good thing everyone believes like you.... Oh wait.... A lot of people said that it would take a blown call before things happened... And now... It looks like a terrible call that decided a game was just what the dr ordered. Sure, you could say that there are other reasons behind it, but It isn't out of the realm of possibility that it had a hand in it, since they met Saturday and Sunday, and remained "Far Apart" according to the reports that came out on Monday.

I don't disagree with you at all about the brand or shield, no question that has been hurt because of all of this. When I say integrity of the game, I mean just that. I don't think the calls are so bad that the games are regularly being decided by the refs. I don't think there is any indication that the refs are making bad calls on purpose.


Well, I don't know of anyone who is claiming that they are doing it on purpose. I think however, that you can make a case that several outcomes have been influenced by the officiating. Without a doubt the Monday Night Game. Possibly Ravens / Eagles. Possibly Denver / Atlanta, but that is definitely the most "Questionable" of the three, since those calls were in the middle of the game, and not in the 4th q.

Dictionary.com wrote:in·teg·ri·ty   [in-teg-ri-tee] Show IPA
noun
1. adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.
2. the state of being whole, entire, or undiminished: to preserve the integrity of the empire.
3. a sound, unimpaired, or perfect condition: the integrity of a ship's hull.


I bolded the part that I'm referring to. I think that part of the integrity of the game is suffering under the Replacement Refs.

EDIT: And I'm not saying that means that the "real" refs are infallible. but I would say that the product on the field when the reg refs are on the field would be Definition #3, and a part of the "integrity of the game". The replacement officials have "Weakened" the integrity.

By and large, the players are deciding the outcomes as they should be. I don't think that there has been any indication that the refs are on the take or anything like that. I think the refs are doing the best that they can, which isn't all that much different than the normal refs, and I think the league is doing what they can to prepare these officials and train them up on their mistakes.


Again, I think we're talking two different kinds of integrity. I'm surely not thinking that they are on the take. I'm thinking they are over their head. I feel like.... If the normal officials are "Joe Flacco"-eque, upper level "good" to Tom Brady "Elite" levels, the refs that they brought in are Spergon Wynn.

If the standard is no bad calls, or no bad calls that affect the outcome of the game, then there never has been any integrity in the NFL. But relative to previous years, I think the standard of officiating is down, but it certainly has not erased the integrity of the game.


I don't think that anyone is saying "No Bad Calls", because Officials are human. I think people are looking more at the blatant bad calls (Some of which I've referenced already), and control of the game. There is a lack of control. Lack of control of the games + blatantly bad calls = loss of integrity. I'm not saying 0 integrity, but the replacement refs have "tarnished" it, so to speak.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:05 pm

I said "most" of the games. Your rebuttal consisting entirely of one game out of 15/16 that are played each week, speaks to my point.

Yeah, I saw what Tate did, I still think that is a bat shit insane stretch. There are rules in the game for player safety, hitting defensless player, attacking the wedge below the waist, crack backs, all sorts of other stuff. Pass Interference...not so much. Can a player who is interefered with get hurt? Of course, but calling that a player safety issue is utter nonesense. Hell you could argue that Tate pushing him out of the way caused him not to get trampled on at the bottom that scrum and otherwise injured. The act itself is not dangerous, but with other penalties it is.

I don't think that defnintion 3 applies, in as much as it's meant to refer to physical objects, but even then I don't agree with your assessment. Regular officials make blatant bad calls too.

For what it's worth, I'm glad the NFL is getting back together with the refs, I was merely saying I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't just because the refs cost a team a game. According to some, it still too more than one.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:37 am

I guess we're just going to disagree, since of course I've mentioned two other games as well, but you don't want to consider them in this. Or that we have seen shoves like that end with people tearing acls, but again, I'm batshit crazy, and you're right.

Anyway, I can watch the browns tonight and rest assured that the majority of the fail will be wearing white with brown and orange trim
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