All about sports

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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:38 am

http://deadspin.com/5946112/the-lingeri ... competence
Not sure if the laugh or be sad about it.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:13 am

Klaudandus wrote:Fuck the scabby potato refs!

Tonight's MNF Screwjob is possibly the biggest black eye yet in what was a horrible Week 3 when it came to officiating...

Week 1 was passable, Week 2 was bleh... Week 3 had the officiating actually costing games.


I watch the Browns, Broncos games when they are on in my area, and then SNF and MNF. Last week, SNF and MNF were painful to watch. This week? I saw how out of control SNF got, and changed it to something else, and I watched the voice with my wife, only turning in for the 4th q of MNF.

I'm not sure I will be watching much football until the refs get back. This has reached a level of wretchedness that I just can't stomach anymore. There was a pretty good tweet last night from someone regarding what happened.

"Russell Wilson became the first QB in history to throw a game-winning interception."
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:18 am

I dont think the replacement refs are defendable anymore after SNF and MNF... and the helmet to helmet hit on DHB
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:29 am

Klaudandus wrote:I dont think the replacement refs are defendable anymore after SNF and MNF... and the helmet to helmet hit on DHB


And the Offensive Pass Interference that they claimed was Defensive Pass Interference.
And the Offensive Pass interference that wasn't called on he Hail Mary
And the Ruling that the Hail Mary was a touchdown.
And the Roughing the Passer on that drive
And the UFC-esque fights that they allowed between Baltimore and NE
And the ages it takes them to get a call wrong
And marching off a penalty from the wrong 44

I'm not very active on Twitter, I have an account to comment on Mike and Mike, and to keep up with a couple of friends who are touring, and a couple of bands I like, but wow.... twitter blew up last night about that. Troy Aikman called the games jokes, Linda Cohn said that the WWE had more integrity than Week 3.

If I were Roger Goodell, I would be standing in front of a podium today, and issuing a public apology. With all the talk about "Protecting the Shield" and "Player Safety", this is getting out of hand. This doesn't protect the brand of the nfl and it surely isn't going to protect the players.

On Mike and Mike this morning, you had Chris Carter and Herm Edwards both say that the games look more violent, and that the players are pushing the envelope on what they can do because the officials aren't calling stuff. This is a bad situation.

After iGoodell got done with my public apology, I would call all 32 owners personally, and tell them to get their asses to New York. I'd then call Ed and Mike Carey, and say "Get your guys to New York.

I would lock them all in a Hotel Bandquet hall and tell them no one is leaving until its done. This is terrible.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:12 am

Klaudandus wrote:I dont think the replacement refs are defendable anymore after SNF and MNF... and the helmet to helmet hit on DHB

Well I think that particular helmet to helmet hit gets missed as often as it's called, with the two defenders colliding at impact, it was pretty tough to see at full speed.

That said, along with the calls, I'm sick of the players crying on every penalty, the coaches trying to intimidate the officials, and the commentators ridiculously irresponsible diatribes during the game. The whole thing is out of control, and at this point I'm worried that when the regular refs get back it won't change. This had better not be the new normal. Regardless of who is officiating next week, the league needs to reign that crap in and fast.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:31 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:I dont think the replacement refs are defendable anymore after SNF and MNF... and the helmet to helmet hit on DHB

Well I think that particular helmet to helmet hit gets missed as often as it's called, with the two defenders colliding at impact, it was pretty tough to see at full speed.

That said, along with the calls, I'm sick of the players crying on every penalty, the coaches trying to intimidate the officials, and the commentators ridiculously irresponsible diatribes during the game. The whole thing is out of control, and at this point I'm worried that when the regular refs get back it won't change. This had better not be the new normal. Regardless of who is officiating next week, the league needs to reign that crap in and fast.


I guess I don't see them crying at every penalty. I couldn't imagine going to work every day, and having the replacement regulators screwing up my business. I think the MNF crew was as diplomatic as you could be last night, and the SNF crew was really spot on with the "game is getting out of control" comments before I changed it.

I don't think that the league can reign it in as long as the replacements take the field. The bitterness has already boiled over. Week 2 was the boiling point, week 3 is when the boil started overflowing out of the pan. The only solution that is going to put the players and coaches at rest is to get the refs back ASAP. I don't see anyway out of this for the NFL now. Maybe before this past weekend, but not now.

I will agree though, that this can't become the new normal when the normal officials get back. If it is, the Golden Goose is the Dead Duck.
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Re: All about sports

Postby halabar » Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:52 am

The thing is, I think Goodell would bend on all the other points if the Refs gave up on that pension demand. NO one gets that kind of deal anymore. The Refs need to bend on that, but they won't and this will drag on.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:46 am

Looks like NFL will make an statement
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100000 ... line_stack
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:07 am

I think they already did.They said earlier that it should not have been overturned but that pass interference should have been called on Tate.

Basically a cop out.
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Re: All about sports

Postby halabar » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:51 am

LOL at all the columnists raging about the NFL and the refs, and then in the fine print they put that the refs still want a pension that full time employees don't get.

I firmly believe that the NFL would double their salaries if they would give up on the pension demand and back down on the "farm team".
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:12 am

halabar wrote:LOL at all the columnists raging about the NFL and the refs, and then in the fine print they put that the refs still want a pension that full time employees don't get.

I firmly believe that the NFL would double their salaries if they would give up on the pension demand and back down on the "farm team".



I think the thing that bothers me more than the NFL refs wanting the pension plan, is that the NFL has (your words not mine) Full Time Employess who don't.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:20 am

The NFL is racking billions in profit... they claim they hold player safety above everything else, but its them being miserly that is causing safety concerns (DHB is a good example) and things are bound to get worse if things are not reigned in (and I dont think they can with the scab potato foot locker dudes)

It's amusing, and yet sad, that TJ Lang said "Fuck it NFL.. Fine me and use the money to pay the regular refs." -- The worst part? NFL will fine him and pocket that money instead of doing something useful with it.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:21 am

Well those columnists keep harping on the notion that since the total cost is such a small portion of the NFL's revenue that the owners should just pay it. To me that is just terrible logic. You don't become wealthy by paying more than the fair market value for something and it is irresponsible (detestable even) to suggest that someone should simply because they can afford it.

Why not instead make the argument that these officials are worth the value that they are asking for? That would be much more compelling.

I got to see the NFL's breakdown (via ESPN )of that call the other night...by issuing that guidance they just redefined what “possession" means when making a catch. At least it doesn't seem to be exploitable but still they needed to own up to that being a bad call.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:24 am

The twitter thread by NFL players, on that call, is highly amusing to say the least

http://deadspin.com/5946113/fine-me-and ... er-tweets-[updating]
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:26 am

Klaudandus wrote:The NFL is racking billions in profit... they claim they hold player safety above everything else, but its them being miserly that is causing safety concerns (DHB is a good example)

What? You're going to have to explain that one.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:11 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:The NFL is racking billions in profit... they claim they hold player safety above everything else, but its them being miserly that is causing safety concerns (DHB is a good example)

What? You're going to have to explain that one.


Darrius Heyward-Bey, you know, the guy smothered by the Steelers, unconscious and all for several minutes... because the scab refs have been somewhat lax on defenseless receiver hits.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:16 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:The NFL is racking billions in profit... they claim they hold player safety above everything else, but its them being miserly that is causing safety concerns (DHB is a good example)

What? You're going to have to explain that one.


I think, and I could be wrong, that he is saying the replacement refs lack of knowledge of the game, and lack of "good flags" has led to the players playing harder, and trying to get away with more. It has been noted by several people, including Mike Golic, Herm Edwards, Chris Carter, Troy Aikman, Mark Schlereth, and a few other former players, that the games that we are seeing are showing a distinct lack of control.

And that because the refs have lost control of the games, player safety is taking a hit. Sure, that play could have happened with the real refs on the field. But, you could argue that more people are going back to unsafe hitting practices because things aren't being officiated well. Look at what Golden Tate did at the end of the Seahawks game. What would have happened had Shields fallen into the other player and torn out his knee? You could argue that he took the chance at a dangerous pass interference because they hadn't been calling it, which led to what could have been a dangerous play, where someone could have gotten injured.

Like I said, I could be wrong, but I'm interpreting his words based on what I've heard a lot of sportscasters and former players say in a similar vein.

I personally feel the same way. The games are losing control, and you are seeing more and more violent contact, tripping, shoving, clipping, blocks in the back, as the games get into the later quarters, because the players are seeing what the refs aren't calling. And if the refs aren't calling it, you do it, because the goal is winning right?
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:17 am

Are you seriously suggesting that Ryan Mundy purposely hit him high because of who was officiating?
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:18 am

Fridmarr wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that Ryan Mundy purposely hit him high because of who was officiating?


There is evidence to suggest that players are doing so. Yes.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:21 am

Shoju wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that Ryan Mundy purposely hit him high because of who was officiating?


There is evidence to suggest that players are doing so. Yes.


There were comments on how some teams were training while practice team players were holding them and such, because they know the refs wont make the calls on that... so yeah, the players have been pushing the envelope, testing what they can get away with because the officiating is weak, and playing fully expecting that.

So yeah, player safety taking a hit is collateral damage to the whole ref lockout.

Mundy's hit might not been have been entirely on purpose, but that officiating is spotty at best basically meant he would take a gamble on the hit and see if he could get away with it.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:58 am

I heard some of the comments from a few of those guys, I'm not sure that's a fair characterization because they did qualify those comments. That argument (along with some of the others) just has the feel to me that "it's been said so often it must be true". Like the whole integrity of the game line. I'm not even sure the people saying it half the time understand what that even means. I'm pretty skeptical of the player safety narrative because I don't really think the logic lines up and no one has really pointed at anything concrete.

The bulk of the complaints about the officials is that they've been too aggressive with their calls on some of those fouls you point out. I don't think for one second that Tate pushed off because of the replacement officials, especially given how many PI penalties were being called in that game. I think he pushed off because he needed to, and it wasn't called because as the commentators pointed before the play, PI is almost never called in those scrums on hail mary plays even though it often occurs.

Have they called all the illegal hits? No, they've missed some, even some that probably would have been called by the regular refs. They are still calling those penalties though. On top of that the fines and suspensions are still happening either way. So I don't see much of a motivation for players to start head hunting. Missed calls on illegal hits happens fairly often, it's not at all unusual for a player to be fined for a hit that was not penalized. I happen to think that the DHB hit was fairly difficult to see as well, because Mundy and another Steeler collided during the hit. I don't think it had anything whatsoever to do with the replacements.

Chop blocks...as if the regular refs ever call those. That's a constant complaint from players, if you watch the film breakdown of the Steelers vs Ravens opening game last season you'll see quite a few that were not called (and caused injury). Of course the league rules do allow them when it occurs by two lineman who are next to each other. That's one that I could see players trying to do more often, but I don't know that they have. I think we would have heard a lot more about it specifically it it was going on. Teams will complain about that pretty quick during a game, so it's hard to imagine a team getting away with it for long. That's one penalty that the speed of the game wouldn't really impact all that much.

I do think the games are more chippy. I think that's part of the whole attitude the player/coaches/commentators have and the refs and the league need to get control of that. At this point I think that is a lost cause unless the NFL starts suspending/fining players for it (which would suck). At the same time, I don't think it's a particular threat to player safety, but it certainly hurts the product.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:03 am

Shoju wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that Ryan Mundy purposely hit him high because of who was officiating?


There is evidence to suggest that players are doing so. Yes.

First what evidence?

Second why would you believe Mundy is guilty because of what someone else did? Have you seen the play in question?
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:52 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Shoju wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that Ryan Mundy purposely hit him high because of who was officiating?


There is evidence to suggest that players are doing so. Yes.

First what evidence?

Second why would you believe Mundy is guilty because of what someone else did? Have you seen the play in question?


A couple of days ago, there was a Yahoo "Shutdown Corner" (I think, may have been another sports article that popped up in my yahoo sports feed) article that listed teams that were doing as Klau has mentioned. They are using practice time more and more as a way to play through it, to push more for it.

Yes. I saw that hit. I said players, not Mundy specifically.

For more evidence that it is happening, Go back and look at

Patriots/Ravens
St. Louis / Washington
Raiders/Steelers

Each of those games can show a clear escalation of hitting / violence / escalating confrontations as the games have moved from beginning to end. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to watch the games and see what it happening.

The refs are in over their heads. It isn't their fault. The NFL ill prepared them for the task at hand. They put rookie crews together to go work these games, because of the lockout. You would never see this many rookie officials at any other time. To top it off, these rookies aren't even "the best of the not NFL Officials" They are guys who worked High School Games, DIII College Football, Got fired from the LFL (God I love abbreviating it like that).

They aren't prepared for the speed of the pro game. There is no "senior official" on the field. There are just rookie crews, who are losing control of the games, and it is causing escalation. Not just in the games, but from week to week. Each week the games have gotten worse.

I've probably griped about the refs too much, but it really isn't their fault. They are surely trying as hard as they can, which is why I blame the NFL. They locked out the "real" refs, and then turned not to the "next best man", but to the guys who "would" do it. And when they turned to them, they didn't do their due dilligence.

I don't want to mock the LFL too much, but it is clearly an inferior league to the nfl in terms of quality of play, athletes, and what not. They didn't even get "the top refs" from that league. They got the guys who got fired.

That doesn't make them bad people, just.... "not good officials". I'm sure I would enjoy having a beer at the local pub with them.

I have to disagree with you when you say that this isn't hurting the "Shield" or the "integrity of the game" or that "It isn't affecting player safety".

The fact that we are all debating how sucktastic it has been is a reflection on the "Shield", the "Brand". It looks bad. Depending on what definition of "integrity of the game" you want to use, you could make a compelling argument that it is doing damage to it, and by not being able to keep the games under control, the problems are escalating as the game goes on, and people are going to get hurt. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that some dude speared some defenseless receiver in mid air and broke his back.

It could mean that some idiot receiver has seen that they aren't calling Offensive Pass Interference, and he checks some guy from behind, sending him spiraling, and he blows out a knee landing funny.

Before, we said "Nothing will happen until the refs cost someone a game" Well that happened, and the front page sports story today, is that the league and the Ref Union are "REALLY CLOSE" to a deal.

Right now we are saying "well, they haven't gotten someone hurt yet." Let's not find out what happens when we can't say that anymore.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Flex » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:13 am

three things in the Ref lockout are issues:
1) NFL wants accountability to fire refs that don't meet a quality standard.
2) Refs want their pensions.
3) Refs want an 8% raise NFL wants a 2.5% raise.

Refs cave on 1, NFL caves on 2 and all current refs retain their pensions and new refs get the buy in plan and the meet in the middle on the third.
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Re: All about sports

Postby halabar » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:38 am

Shoju wrote:
halabar wrote:LOL at all the columnists raging about the NFL and the refs, and then in the fine print they put that the refs still want a pension that full time employees don't get.

I firmly believe that the NFL would double their salaries if they would give up on the pension demand and back down on the "farm team".



I think the thing that bothers me more than the NFL refs wanting the pension plan, is that the NFL has (your words not mine) Full Time Employess who don't.


Really, who gets fully-funded guaranteed pensions like what the Refs have now these days? no one. NFL wants to give them a 401k like everyone else.

I have NO sympathy for the refs on that.
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