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EU's lack of features in customer service compared to US?

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Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: EU - the scapegoat...

Postby Malthrax » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:48 pm

If getting your WoW-fix "on time" is that important to you, you could emigrate to the US.
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Re: EU - the scapegoat...

Postby Passionario » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:11 pm

Malthrax wrote:If getting your WoW-fix "on time" is that important to you, you could emigrate to the US.

Or, alternatively, try playing on a Chinese server for a while, and then come back to EU.
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Re: EU - the scapegoat...

Postby Raeli » Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:56 am

Imagine for a moment there are two people. They both pay the same price and get the same base service of access to servers. Not an official part of the service, but something you only get if you have the service is the promise of regular content updates, support and so on - while these aren't what is promised to you, you get them and expect them as part of your service. Now, one guy on top of all this gets to interact with the developers and give them feedback, they get access to content earlier, and he gets to play test versions of games before you do. But you pay the same price. Why is that okay or fair?

Of course, I understand in reality that they are a US based company and it's simply easier for them to do things in their region first or only (Blzzcon), but I'm pretty sure shared forums would go a long way to making European customers feel less than just an easy cash cow, and more like valued customers. It's one thing to offer a better service to someone that pays more, it's an entirely other to offer someone a better service just because it's easier to. You can say that these things aren't a service, but without money, they wouldn't be doing any of this.

Also, Sabindeus, you may be a moderator here, but that doesn't mean it's okay for you to troll people. The things you have posted here are just beyond belief. Do you really lack that much that you cannot put yourselves in the shoes of another person and imagine how it would feel for you? Sure, these things are not big, but they are noticable, to dismiss them as you are doing, I think, is quite inappropriate, especially as a Moderator. Just imagine for a moment you are in this position, you pay the same, you expect the same standard of service everyone gets. You don't get to sit in first class for the same price as economy, just because, you pay more. You don't get a bigger drink at McDonalds just because, you pay more; so why should you get more for your money here? It's not an unreasonable thing to complain about - and yes, it is more for your money as you are getting access to things sooner and so on.
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Re: EU - the scapegoat...

Postby Passionario » Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:38 am

Raeli wrote:I'm pretty sure shared forums would go a long way to making European customers feel less than just an easy cash cow, and more like valued customers


No. No, it wouldn't.

All it would accomplish is to change the focus of the envy. Instead of whinng about "US customers getting preferential treatment", people with entitlement issues would make topics like "why do blues keep posting in [CLASS X] forum and deliberately ignoring [CLASS Y]?" or "my guildmate got D3 invite, but I didn't: is it a Masonic conspiracy or just plain old criminal negligence?".

----

Loras, Raeli, this may not be palatable and I keep trying to come up with a better way to put it, but the simplicity of things, at least from my perspective is this:

Blizzard is not your bitch.

This is a useful thing to know, perhaps a useful thing to point out when you find yourself thinking that possibly Blizzard is, indeed, your bitch, and should be constantly showering you with freebies.
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Re: EU - the scapegoat...

Postby Raeli » Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:02 am

Passionario wrote:
Raeli wrote:I'm pretty sure shared forums would go a long way to making European customers feel less than just an easy cash cow, and more like valued customers


No. No, it wouldn't.


Oh, I guess you know me better than I know myself then. I for sure would be pretty happy with that - although as I say, I am not all that bothered about posting on Blizzard's forums, but if I were, I would be happy if this changed. For sure I would actually post more than I do now as there have been discussions in the past I would have liked to have posted in but it's really not a huge thing to me.

Passionario wrote:Loras, Raeli, this may not be palatable and I keep trying to come up with a better way to put it, but the simplicity of things, at least from my perspective is this:

Blizzard is not your bitch.

This is a useful thing to know, perhaps a useful thing to point out when you find yourself thinking that possibly Blizzard is, indeed, your bitch, and should be constantly showering you with freebies.


I never claimed as much, but how do you feel when the other guy is constantly getting showered with freebies, as you put it? As I said before though, this issue doesn't irk me that much, I have little interest in posting on Blizzard's forum, and I'd sooner have maintenance as it is now, than at the same time as in America, giving us patches at the same time. Having said this, I'm not blind and I can understand how these things would annoy people and make them feel less valued, especially more so when I see other American companies doing these things that seem to be so hard for Blizzard. Just take a look at SWTOR's forums for example, Devs posting in multiple languages, for sure majority is English, but it's a shared forums and will stay as such. The fact that I can get my opinion right to a developer is quite a powerful thing - sure, Blizzard say everything posted is sent to US, but it's collated and sent, they aren't my exact words and it's also done behind the scenes, call it psychological, it sure is, but it certainly doesn't feel the same. As I say, it's a minor thing, but I can understand how people would get upset about it, especially when you can point to several things and feel like you're getting less than another person just because of your location in the world, despite paying the same amount of money.

I just think it's silly that so many people here have the arrogance to try and dismiss this guy and go almost as so far as to be insulting him just because this annoys him, something that to be honest, is perfectly understandable to be annoyed about, even if it is also entirely understandable why such things may always be as they are.
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Re: EU - the scapegoat...

Postby Passionario » Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:29 am

Raeli wrote:I just think it's silly that so many people here have the arrogance to try and dismiss this guy and go almost as so far as to be insulting him just because this annoys him, something that to be honest, is perfectly understandable to be annoyed about, even if it is also entirely understandable why such things may always be as they are.


I believe it's a matter of local forum etiquette.

As you know, we have a stickied thread for pet peeves, minor annoyances and personal frustrations. If Loras posted his complaint there, no one would mind. By making a separate thread dedicated to this issue, he has effectively announced that he considers it to be Serious Business/Major Problem - thus inviting a flurry of swift replies pointing out that it is, in fact, not.
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Re: EU - the scapegoat...

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:37 am

The seperation does kinda provoke a different attitude. I for example have never bothered to read blue tracker posts from EU forums, and I don't have much desire to look at the EU forums in general.

Now that's about what you want the site for: Unless I need actual technical support, the only thing that interests me is the type of dev feedback that we get from Blizzard. I don't tend to participate, so I'm fine with reading stuff from the US side that I can't reply to, but others won't be the same.

When the difference is between a rep in Europe giving a standard response, and Zarhym saying "I just had a chat with the guy who works on this, and he says...", well, it's noticable.
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Re: EU - the scapegoat...

Postby Loras » Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:21 am

Passionario wrote:As you know, we have a stickied thread for pet peeves, minor annoyances and personal frustrations. If Loras posted his complaint there, no one would mind. By making a separate thread dedicated to this issue, he has effectively announced that he considers it to be Serious Business/Major Problem - thus inviting a flurry of swift replies pointing out that it is, in fact, not.


Thank you for the suggestion, but I find the two things somewhat different... Posting in a 1400 pages of "omg why didn't X item drop/ why is everyone dying on X boss/etc" spam is not exactly my idea for a discussion. Not to mention that everything in this topic seems in-game related, and my "issue" is a bit more global. Let's move half of the posts in the Brewfest topic to that Frustration sticky, since they consist of "2 years no mount/dagger/xyz, come oooon!" posts, then?

And yeah, thanks for the trolling, Sab, Passio and Malthrax... Reminds me again why I stopped following the forum that closely since half an year ago or so :/ If the thread is so out of place and inappropriate, you could just delete it; if you don't wanna participate in a civil discussion, then no need to post, but I don't see why people need to be arrogant.

On the quote - I'm sorry, will you please direct me to the description of the General section of the forum where it says that anything posted here is considered a "serious business/major problem"? I am not gonna die from these differences, but I would certainly feel a bit better if they didn't exist. And for some of them I see no reason for their existence.
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Re: EU - the scapegoat...

Postby Passionario » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:24 am

Loras wrote:if you don't wanna participate in a civil discussion, then no need to post, but I don't see why people need to be arrogant.


As a EU player who finds Blizzard's quality of service to be more than adequate, I found the suggestion that I'm a scapegoat and a stupid cash cow who is being treated like a second class citizen to be extremely insulting.

Raeli wrote:The fact that I can get my opinion right to a developer is quite a powerful thing - sure, Blizzard say everything posted is sent to US, but it's collated and sent, they aren't my exact words and it's also done behind the scenes, call it psychological, it sure is, but it certainly doesn't feel the same.


This reminds me of Elder Game's article "Taming The Forum Tiger". He made a rather compelling argument as to why it's better for game developers to communicate with players through moderators and community representatives, rather than directly.

From that viewpoint, US forums should be more like EU, rather than the other way around. :)
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Re: EU - the scapegoat...

Postby Timbalcrash » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:46 am

Regarding the delay of patches, hotfixes and similar game elements, it may be a factor that those changes need, to some extent, the support of human staff working on regular work schedules.

While I would like to be able to post in US forums, although I do not post very often at all, I am sure that a lot of non english speakers would be annoyed it the forums would be english only.
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Re: EU - the scapegoat...

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:09 am

Ugh this thread has gone down the drain.

For those who WANT the exact same treatment that US client holders get, then it sucks. For those who really don't care (which is probably more than people who do care) it's completely irrelevant. I might be irritated too if I wanted something from one of those areas, but I don't.

There's nothing wrong with wanting the same quality of service and that desire cannot be dismissed outright. BUT, WoW is developed in the States and, as such, there is just simply more support there.
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Re: EU - the scapegoat...

Postby Chicken » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:13 am

I'm actually happy we get the patches one day later, I can remember it meaning the EU servers stayed up while the US servers crashed and burned after a patch at least once back in Classic. We got the fixed version of the patch a week later, basically giving us the same thing without the server issues. The US are pretty much our guinea pigs.
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Re: EU - the scapegoat...

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:15 am

Loras wrote:And yeah, thanks for the trolling, Sab, Passio and Malthrax... Reminds me again why I stopped following the forum that closely since half an year ago or so :/ If the thread is so out of place and inappropriate, you could just delete it; if you don't wanna participate in a civil discussion, then no need to post, but I don't see why people need to be arrogant.
Are you kidding? Have you read your posts here? You don't seem interested in either a discussion or civility.

I have no doubt that the lack of access or timing on the EU servers can be annoying, but it really just boils down to Psiven's post.

Raeli wrote:Also, Sabindeus, you may be a moderator here, but that doesn't mean it's okay for you to troll people. The things you have posted here are just beyond belief. Do you really lack that much that you cannot put yourselves in the shoes of another person and imagine how it would feel for you? Sure, these things are not big, but they are noticable, to dismiss them as you are doing, I think, is quite inappropriate, especially as a Moderator. Just imagine for a moment you are in this position, you pay the same, you expect the same standard of service everyone gets. You don't get to sit in first class for the same price as economy, just because, you pay more. You don't get a bigger drink at McDonalds just because, you pay more; so why should you get more for your money here? It's not an unreasonable thing to complain about - and yes, it is more for your money as you are getting access to things sooner and so on.
First Sabindeus isn't trolling, nor are his posts unreasonable at all. When you have a problem with a moderator, you need to PM another moderator, not whine about it in a post.

Secondly, you are not paying for any of the features being complained about (you don't even need an active account to participate in betas/ptrs if the timing is right). You are merely paying for access to their servers with their client in the manner in which they prescribe. That aside, price points fluctuate all over the place. A gallon of gas in California is much more expensive than the same gallon of gas in the midwest. The reason goes into the costs/effort associated with getting the end product to those locations. Even though the bulk of WoW is digital, at some point there are physical computers and people providing certain efforts around patches/betas/ptrs etc. Currently the majority of those resources are located in the US, so it's easier and more efficient for Blizzard to run those more locally.

I can understand the frustration to a degree, but lets get some perspective. This thread is on the brink, it started out bad (and should have been in he frustration topic) and has gotten progressively worse. If folks truly want a discussion around this topic, then the flaming and whining need to stop now.
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Re: EU - the scapegoat...

Postby Loras » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:05 am

Fridmarr, can I ask you to reread my first post, please (or even the whole topic)?

First, I mostly state facts. Half the people in the thread agree that these things exist, but don't agree it is bothersome. The other half also agree that these thigns exist AND also agree that they are bothersome. In summary, everyone agrees witht the facts I present. Where did I do wrong here?

Second, I am asking about people's opinions about it, after just expressing my own thoughts. If it was meant to be some random frustration/whine presentation, I would've just presented it like "Omg this is crap that is crap, why??? F*ckin Blizz!", don't you think? Hell, I even warn that it might sound a bit more rant-ish than intended, but the intention is not just to whine in order to "release the steam".

Third, the first batch of the posters manage to keep the nice tone, some agree, some don't, all is good. And then I get replies like "hurr durr, move to US or China". Really? I am the one not interested in a discussion or civility?
Ok, fine, delete the topic then, it's pretty pointless. If it didn't belong here in the first place, I just don't know why you didn't do it right from the start...
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Re: EU - the scapegoat...

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:50 am

Passionario wrote:Blizzard is not your bitch.


Nice Neil Gaiman reference :D

My sisters live in the same city. Younger sister gets to hang out with my niece all the time. They get together all the time, have meals together a lot; my sister gets to take my niece to the park all the time.

I live eight hundred miles away. I'll hear from them every so often; my sister mails the entire family photos and videos of the cute shit Pia does, and sometimes my brother-in-law will post things to Facebook about her.

Is this "fair"? Perhaps not, but I recognize that as a function of distance, these things happen.

Not to mention whenever someone starts complaining about "fair" I start wondering what their angle is.

It is one thing if you are paying for something that you are not receiving: then you would have a legitimate grievance. It is another if you don't think you're getting enough of something you feel entitled to: this becomes a judgement call, and is murky at best.

To your points:
1. Patching timing. You don't pay for 0 day patches.
2. Forum presence. You don't pay for more community access. Blizzard isn't obligated to have EU forums at all, and yet they spend nontrivial amounts of money trying to support the EU community. Your argument is that they don't do *enough*. I think this argument is bollocks.
3. Division of servers. There are logistical and legal reasons for server divisions. Write to your local representative. Blizzard's hands are very likely tied by miles of legal red tape.
4. D3 beta. You don't pay for betas.
5. PTR. You don't pay for access to the PTR.

If you can show me where Blizzard has promised EU players any of these things, or has not made a good faith attempt to connect with their community, then sure, you have a legitimate grievance. Otherwise no, you're complaining about small stones and some people find your sense of entitlement grating.

Also, I see you've changed the title of the thread to complaining about lack of features in customer service. This lack is real and not imagined. What is your point? That this state of matters bothers you? Okay. What of it?

You say you want to know what other people think. Some people agree, some people disagree. Most people recognize that locality and international borders matter. So what? What is the point of this conversation you've started? What kind of "discussion" could you possibly be looking for?
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