Scientists make startling discovery

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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Xenix » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:07 pm

theckhd wrote:I'll tell you what, speculate all you want, I'll give you $1000 USD if this ends up leading to a true causality violation, and isn't just a simple particle wavefunction reshaping effect.


Heh - that requires the posting of today's xkcd comic about this subject:
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On the subject of faster-than-light travel without breaking general relativity, the main two things I've seen (not an expert) are

a) somehow transfer your vehicle/information/whatever to another universe/dimension/whatever where that limit is higher, then come back (essentially saying GR in the -other- universe isn't broken) - this is generally used in most sci-fi books.

or

b) making a stable macroscopic wormhole, possible under GR but requiring matter with negative mass/energy. While you wouldn't exceed the speed of a beam of light going through said wormhole with you, you'd get to the other end faster than a beam of light that didn't take the wormhole. Also,if you could accelerate one end of the wormhole up to relativistic speeds, you could also theoretically travel through time as well, going back/forth an amount of time equal to the difference in apparent time between the two ends of the wormhole. (and lots of other fun stuff, no doubt)
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Treck » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:23 pm

theckhd wrote:Are you sure about that? Is manipulating spacetime even possible, outside of a black hole or some other singularity? I'm asking honestly here, because I don't know - I have very little experience with General Relativity, which is where warping spacetime would come into play. But I was under the impression that even in GR with highly-warped space time, Einstein causality was preserved.

The most popular explanation for spacetime manipulation currently involves exotic matter such as negative mass, and yes mathematicly possible, it hasnt been observed or measured.
Actually manipulating spacetime is incredibly easy, by moving any object you are in effect manipulating spacetime.
As space and time are related, and since any object in space has a gravitational pull, its affecting spacetime.
So by creating an object with a high enough gravitational pull we can manipulate spacetime accordingly.
Working with negative mass you can surround yourself in a spacetime bubble that propells forward at some speed, without actually moving.
The bubble of space would be moving with you in it, and since your not moving in the space you are in, you would not defy GR.
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Xenix » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:15 pm

Oh yeah - forgot about that one. cHere's the Wikipedia link to it (with all the nice sources cited at the bottom for reading material).
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Dantriges » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:18 pm

I don´t think that someone thinks low of your knowledge Theck.

It´s more that announcing you discovered FTL is a sure way to attract media attention and close peer review. And it´s probably a good way to dump your reputation and credibility.
Seems that they see it the same way. They distanced themselves as far as possible from the results. They more or less posted them and said, must be an error.

So this lab is part of Cern or was part of the experiment conducted at CERN at least. CERN probably has many top qualified scientists there working in the field for decades. They probably have the budget to have the time to fine comb their results, lab equipment and whatever else for possible mistakes. And the connection to scientists with possible helpful knowledge they could contact without making an announcement that even laymen register and the media will probably exaggerate quite a lot.

You can bet that there will be some guys who will call the whole thing a failure, combine it with the "Black Hole could devour us all" stuff and call the whole affair of CERN a failure for political brownie points. At least CERN will lose reputation in the process, at least in the laymen area, if it´s a simple mistake.

As laymen we have no idea how exotic your knowledge is, so the first reaction is that people refuse to believe that the answer comes from a guy who posted it in an internet forum about WoW in general and paladin tanking specifically.

You will probably check your idea with your peers and the guys who review your defense, too.

And well the media will probably make you a genius prodigy student, if you found the answer to this riddle because you don´t have your Ph.D. yet and ridicule the guys at CERN who have I don´t know a hundred Ph.Ds together and a not yet one had to show them . :wink: .

The yellow press probably makes it "WoW player found answer CERN did not. Is WoW good for the education of your child."

Thanks we could need some positive rep. :D
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby sahiel » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:33 pm

Personally my knowledge of physics is older, unused mostly, and in a somewhat different field (geophysics), so whilst the discovery of new ways the universe functions would be amazing, I'm strongly expecting someone to find an error, mistake, whatever, but something overlooked that explains it, it seems the most likely explanation and as has been said, the scientists involved are practically saying "Someone figure out what happened, cause this can't be right". That said, some relatively serious scientists are weighing in on the quality of the experiments so it seems that if that is the case it might be something pretty esoteric.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... tered.html

Regardless though, science in the news, and in a positive light and even some of the reports being mostly factual and not "OMG FTL travel is here!!!!111" is always something I look forwards to.
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby theckhd » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:20 pm

Treck wrote:
theckhd wrote:Are you sure about that? Is manipulating spacetime even possible, outside of a black hole or some other singularity? I'm asking honestly here, because I don't know - I have very little experience with General Relativity, which is where warping spacetime would come into play. But I was under the impression that even in GR with highly-warped space time, Einstein causality was preserved.

The most popular explanation for spacetime manipulation currently involves exotic matter such as negative mass, and yes mathematicly possible, it hasnt been observed or measured.
Actually manipulating spacetime is incredibly easy, by moving any object you are in effect manipulating spacetime.
As space and time are related, and since any object in space has a gravitational pull, its affecting spacetime.
So by creating an object with a high enough gravitational pull we can manipulate spacetime accordingly.
Working with negative mass you can surround yourself in a spacetime bubble that propells forward at some speed, without actually moving.
The bubble of space would be moving with you in it, and since your not moving in the space you are in, you would not defy GR.


I probably should have been clearer there; obviously you warp spacetime simply by having mass. But that warping isn't enough to create a situation where FTL is allowed - that takes a much more significant manipulation, like the one you described. As far as I'm aware (which isn't very far, again, GR isn't really my area), the only way to create a manipulation that would allow FTL effects involves things that for all practical purposes don't exist, like negative mass or wormholes or what not.
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Sagara » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:29 pm

Unrelated, but I think my respect for theck just skyrocketed AGAIN.
Right now I'm considering that this respect is a proper allegory as to what the CERN guys tought they did with the speed of light.
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Treck » Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:29 am

theckhd wrote:But that warping isn't enough to create a situation where FTL is allowed - that takes a much more significant manipulation, like the one you described. As far as I'm aware (which isn't very far, again, GR isn't really my area), the only way to create a manipulation that would allow FTL effects involves things that for all practical purposes don't exist, like negative mass or wormholes or what not.

You are correct, the energys you would have to create for this kind of FTL travel would be something like the energy of a sun infront of you, and an equally large ammount with negative matter behind you.
It will basicly be easier to create a manmade black hole, not to mention that negative matter hasnt been confirmed to exist in our universe.
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:06 pm

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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby sahiel » Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:12 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Where we're going, we won't need eyes to see.

Love that movie :D
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Brekkie » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:43 pm

Thanks for your insights Theck. I was hoping to hear your take on this. God I love how eclectic a community this is. From the Osama bin Laden raid to particle physics to politics in Russia, we always seem to have somebody who can give direct insights from experience.

They would not publish this if they knew what went wrong.
And while i dont know exactly what Thecks physic's education entails, i still think (and hope) the scientists working with this on Cern would have a better idea on what they are suppose to be doing.


That's not how science works.
The entire culture is specifically one of constant questioning. You don't publish results because you are certain of them. You publish them in large part so that the entire scientific community can weigh in and check you work and see how it may apply to or connect with theirs.

Plus, as already mentioned, they DIDN'T publish yet.
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Sagara » Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:01 pm

FOr anyone who has played Mage: the Awakening, I remember a sidenote that was basically this: There is no "proven" theories, only theories that are supported by evidence.

WhHen new evidence comes up that disproves a theory, either you disprove the evidence, or you seek a theory that accounts for the extra data - but no amount of evidence can "prove" a theory.

Which in turns reminds me why I have some faith in science: it's doesn't have faith in itself :p
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:23 am

Sagara wrote:Which in turns reminds me why I have some faith in science: it's doesn't have faith in itself :p


Or to put it another way: it has faith in the method, which is to constantly question and re-evaluate based on the evidence.

Also, Nukees ran a pretty amusing comic on the subject today:
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Sagara » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:32 am

theckhd wrote:Or to put it another way: it has faith in the method, which is to constantly question and re-evaluate based on the evidence.

Also, *strip*


Now that more mean towards the press than fair towards science :) Bad Theck!

Still had a good laugh.
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Malthrax » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:37 am

Brekkie wrote:Plus, as already mentioned, they DIDN'T publish yet.


Exactly. They didn't publish their findings as fact, they basically said "huh.. this is funky, and we can't figure out where the error is. sum1s plz halp!!"
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