Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:11 am

I am pretty sure there was a big to do about the fact that multiple guilds shut off the buff, killed Heroic LK, and were unhappy that killing him with no buff didn't "do" anything.

I'm pretty sure that was why the buff was so maligned previously. Blizzard's decisions made people feel like they didn't care if you killed him buff on, or buff off daniel-san.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Tev » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:17 am

The nerfs make sense in 1 context, they want as many people as possible to experience all the content they can... I guess it has to do with how back in BC they were developing new raid content for at most I think 25% of the max level WoW population? In a business sense, why develop content the majority of your player base will never see, it neither holds existing players or attracts new players.

That said, the main nerf they should make to any raid to make it easier (where applicable) is to remove enrage timers. This gives the raid more flexibility in class make up, without turning the boss itself into a complete pushover. Raid taking too much damage? Add more healers. Adds out of control? Bring another tank. The raid becomes easier because of the latitude in class makeup. If people have issues after that point, then maybe bring down the boss health/damage, but its seems overkill to do that too early.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:34 am

Passionario wrote:
yappo wrote:In that sense the ICC solution was better.


I suspect that the percentage of raid groups who actually disabled the ICC buff was extremely low. And if the vast majority of players will choose the easier option, why not implement it directly in the form of straight-out nerfs?

We did! We turned that sucker off! Until we still hadn't managed LK by 20% and ended up turning it on then and then downing it.

How shameful.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:15 am

Tev wrote:The nerfs make sense in 1 context, they want as many people as possible to experience all the content they can... I guess it has to do with how back in BC they were developing new raid content for at most I think 25% of the max level WoW population? In a business sense, why develop content the majority of your player base will never see, it neither holds existing players or attracts new players.

That said, the main nerf they should make to any raid to make it easier (where applicable) is to remove enrage timers. This gives the raid more flexibility in class make up, without turning the boss itself into a complete pushover. Raid taking too much damage? Add more healers. Adds out of control? Bring another tank. The raid becomes easier because of the latitude in class makeup. If people have issues after that point, then maybe bring down the boss health/damage, but its seems overkill to do that too early.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Malthrax » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:21 am

Tev wrote:That said, the main nerf they should make to any raid to make it easier (where applicable) is to remove enrage timers. This gives the raid more flexibility in class make up, without turning the boss itself into a complete pushover. Raid taking too much damage? Add more healers. Adds out of control? Bring another tank. The raid becomes easier because of the latitude in class makeup. If people have issues after that point, then maybe bring down the boss health/damage, but its seems overkill to do that too early.


You know... thats actually not a half-bad idea.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby RedAces » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:59 am

Malthrax wrote:
Tev wrote:That said, the main nerf they should make to any raid to make it easier (where applicable) is to remove enrage timers. This gives the raid more flexibility in class make up, without turning the boss itself into a complete pushover. Raid taking too much damage? Add more healers. Adds out of control? Bring another tank. The raid becomes easier because of the latitude in class makeup. If people have issues after that point, then maybe bring down the boss health/damage, but its seems overkill to do that too early.
You know... thats actually not a half-bad idea.


That only works in very few encounters. Exceptions are:
  • Shannox
  • Bethilac (especially heroic where the adds have much more HP)
  • Alysrazor (the ground phases are the problem here, not Boss HP)
  • Ragnaros
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Chicken » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:13 am

mavfin wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:But there's still an option. With the new changes, there's no option at all.
The reason it's not being put in this time is that no one used it when it was there before. If you take the time to put the option in and no one uses it, you're not going to bother with it the next time. Personally, I think this line of thought is just QQ anyway, because there was so much discussion of this the first time where so many said "Well, we *could* click it off, but the other guilds won't click it off because of progression, so we don't dare do it either." Even the guilds who weren't in the progression race, and there was one particular person here I can think of who ranted about it the most...wouldn't click it off, and then was unhappy when the kills came with the buff, which made no sense to me at all.
Some of that logic also applies to heroic modes in its own way though. It wouldn't surprise me if the amount of people people who even have a chance to participate in the hardest pieces of heroic content isn't much larger than the amount of people that would turn off the ICC buff since they want to beat the content at its intended tuning. And actually tuning heroic raid encounters seems (to me) to be much more effort than introducing something similar to the ICC buff.

So if they maintain one thing only really used by such a tiny amount of the playerbase, why not do another seemingly simpler thing appealing to a similarly small group of people?
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:37 am

Tev wrote:The nerfs make sense in 1 context, they want as many people as possible to experience all the content they can... I guess it has to do with how back in BC they were developing new raid content for at most I think 25% of the max level WoW population? In a business sense, why develop content the majority of your player base will never see, it neither holds existing players or attracts new players.

That said, the main nerf they should make to any raid to make it easier (where applicable) is to remove enrage timers. This gives the raid more flexibility in class make up, without turning the boss itself into a complete pushover. Raid taking too much damage? Add more healers. Adds out of control? Bring another tank. The raid becomes easier because of the latitude in class makeup. If people have issues after that point, then maybe bring down the boss health/damage, but its seems overkill to do that too early.


My phone ate my actual reply 3 times...

Am gonna try to summarize what I can remember...

I came late into the raiding scene, towards BC's last fourth of its shelf-life. I was in a small guild, so I only did Kara and Zul, but we had tons of more content, SWP, BT, Grul, SSC, TK... you get the idea...

And now that I'm going back to those places to farm for mog gear, I realize something...

a. Blizz really did develop a tons of content back then
b. had they had 10 and 25 modes available for all their raids, BC would have been EVEN more successful
c. By comparison, Cata is a huge disappointment

I got into raiding more seriously in wrath, and enjoyed it quite a lot too, doing 11/12 H icc10 before cata hit the shelves, but not since BC, there has been the amount of content really needed to support end game play...

And dont get me wrong, Wrath really started to get paladins to be even more effective at tanking, so I love that part of Wrath.

And now we have Firelands, which is a clusterfuck, considering that we went from 13 bosses in T11 to 7 bosses in T12, which created a huge problem due to the compressed loot tables.

And blizz wonders why they're losing people?
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby halabar » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:12 am

Klaudandus wrote:And now we have Firelands, which is a clusterfuck, considering that we went from 13 bosses in T11 to 7 bosses in T12, which created a huge problem due to the compressed loot tables.

And blizz wonders why they're losing people?


And it's going to get worse... We go to T13 where we have a linear progression of fights with one boss. No passing Shannox to work on Beth or Rhyo.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Flex » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:13 am

so hearing that Deathwing may be a multiple stage fight means Deathwing is the only fight?
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:18 am

No, I'm guessing there will be some bosses before him...

Again... CATA currently has 20 raid bosses!!! If they go with 7 bosses again for 4.3... by comparison, Naxx + Ulduar have 29 bosses between the two!.
Last edited by Klaudandus on Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby halabar » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:19 am

Flex wrote:so hearing that Deathwing may be a multiple stage fight means Deathwing is the only fight?


We should find out soon enough on the PTR, along with the even MORE important question answered...

Will there be epic gems, and will they come from pyrite?...
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby lythac » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:25 am

Deathwing could also function as Putricide for a few fights.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Mukat » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:42 am

lythac wrote:Deathwing could also function as Putricide for a few fights.

What do you mean by this? Like how in heroic BWD Nef would help out the raid bosses in one way or another, like Putricide did to Rotface and Festergut (heroic)? I wouldn't like that too much. Deathwing isn't as prideful as his son. I think Deathwing would sooner just kill us.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Malthrax » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:44 am

For the first 4 raid lockouts, Deathwing will mercilessly rofflepwn any, and every, attempt to engage him. He will be "mathematically impossible".

Then he'll get nerfed into the ground so all the lolcazls can farm iLvl500 gear for Mists of Panduhhhhhhria.
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