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Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:59 pm

Jeremoot wrote:Guess I took Passionario's post a bit too seriously.


people like you let the trolls win
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby RedAces » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:00 pm

trololololol
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Steve » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:09 pm

I'm on record as having said in the past it would be a bad idea to release any raid content without an ICC style buff system in place. In retrospect, I think the problem is more complicated than even that.

The current raid system demands a fairly similar minimum level of performance out of your entire raid. Every encounter seems to have either a soft or hard enrage mechanic. Most encounters have randomly applied debuffs that give nearly every player in the raid the ability to single-handedly destroy an attempt. This is especially true relative to what raiding was like in Vanilla and TBC.

Blizzard has made it very hard for good players to carry bad players through raid content. 20% of your raid cannot carry the other 80% of your raid through an encounter. (Granted, the Pareto principle is hard at work in terms of acquiring raiding resources, managing the guild, and evaluating raid performances.) This encounter design has a few implications.

First, less people see raid content because the good players can't carry bad ones through the content as easily or effectively (or in many cases, at all). I think the shared lockout (and lockouts more generally) contribute to this problem.

Second, players are given incentives to sort themselves by skill rather than by social compatibility. I'm not saying they are forced to, just that the choice is put to them. You can't carry people you like but who aren't good players through raid content in the same way you could in the early raid game. If you want to down heroic content, that requires you to find other players of a similar attitude/approach to the raid game. I think there's a solution to this problem that doesn't require you to dumb down raid content to the level of the worst player in the raid.

Third, much of the work in actually sorting the player base is left to the players. In specific terms (as an example), since you can't carry players as easily this requires constant evaluation of raid performance -- especially of new recruits. That's a time consuming process that creates significant social friction. Now it's entirely true that some of this is going to be required no matter what, but the game could be designed in a way to help players with this sorting process. At the micro level, the game could do a better job in giving feedback to the player about how well they are playing. At the macro level, the game might try steering some players away from raiding in general to an alternate end-game activity that rewards them in ways that raiding cannot. (I'm thinking here in terms of commensurability of rewards. The rewards from these alternate endgame activities should ideally not be commensurable with the rewards from raiding, and they should be the type of rewards that players who would engage in the activity to acquire those rewards would enjoy.)

Another problem is the increased rotation complexity has allowed the skill gaps to manifest in ever increasing gaps in actual game performance. The difference between a good and bad player is larger now than it was even in in WotLK. I'm not saying skill gaps shouldn't manifest in actual game performance (that would be bad design for very obvious reasons). I'm just saying the magnitude of the gaps needs to be reduced significantly if you want players of varying skill levels shoehorned into 2 difficulty levels.

I don't think moving to 3 encounter difficulty levels is going to solve these issues as well as they (or I used to) think.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Bladesong » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:09 pm

I wanted to add a different perspective to this conversation. First, on the topic of shared 10/25 raid lockouts, I want to make it clear that I really dislike them, as it takes choice away from my prospective WoW activities. However, when they were first announced I noticed that they seemed quite popular with the general population (I read forums here, Tankspot, MMO and Blizz) and I even had some back and forth conversations with people about them. While people gave a variety of reasons for liking them (and for normalizing 10 vs 25 man loot), what it really boiled down to was a "keeping up with the Jonses" mentality. It doesn't matter if someone is raiding or not, they want epics because other people have them. Even raiders often felt like they "had to" run both 10 and 25 because it was the only way to maximize gear, again, whether they needed to or not.

I can (and did) argue that people should have the self control to only put as much time into the game as they *wanted to*, but it became clear that people felt that availability was creating an insurmountable compulsion. Although I disagree with them, their opinions are just as valid as mine and they are legion. Sure, that's not how real life works, but this is a game and people have different expectations from a game. I often think one of the big disconnects in WoW is people bringing single player game expectations to an MMO.

When making the decision to nerf content, Blizzard has all the cards - they know exactly how many groups are attempting each boss and they know exactly what the success rate is for each of those bosses. I don't always like their decisions and they do make mistakes, but this nerf seems like a pretty straight forward fix for them wanting a certain percentage of the population to be completing regular and heroic Firelands.

EDIT: I thought this was a great observation, probably because it perfectly describes why my raiding enjoyment has been dropping during this expansion, even though I think the content is really good.
Second, players are given incentives to sort themselves by skill rather than by social compatibility. I'm not saying they are forced to, just that the choice is put to them. You can't carry people you like but who aren't good players through raid content in the same way you could in the early raid game. If you want to down heroic content, that requires you to find other players of a similar attitude/approach to the raid game.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby rodos » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:40 pm

I think we still haven't answered the question of what the "right speed" is for progression at various skill/casualness levels?

My guild is social, but not particularly casual. We have a tight team, and have run our FL raid every week since 4.2 on our schedule of 2x 3-hour nights. We're 6/7 normal, which means we've downed a new boss about every two weeks. We went in somewhat under-geared, and with some inexperienced players, but the truth is we're not even close to the top tier in terms of skill. However, we do sit above the half-way point of guilds on our server that raid 10-man on our schedule, so surely we're at least average.

Is our rate of progress unacceptable? Not what Blizzard wants? Personally, I feel we didn't play our best some weeks and could have gone faster, but not that much faster. An average of 1 new boss per week would feel like solid progression to me, and any more I'd think the content was too easy for us.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Passionario » Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:24 pm

Sabindeus wrote:SIGH

don't let Passionario troll you guys, seriously.


I wasn't trolling, just preemptively illustrating a point that I haven't made yet. :)

A lot of people are saying that these nerfs are coming too soon, and that all those guilds that aren't progressing as quickly as Blizzard expected them to simply need more time and attempts. So I decided to remind them that, last time this situation occurred (in 4.1), Blizzard has done exactly that - gave us extra time instead of nerfs, and that this particular solution had far more downsides to it than upsides.

So be careful when you wish for additional time to fight unnerfed Ragnaros. You might just get to do it until February.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Rokh » Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:55 pm

Chicken wrote:Clearly the new challenge for the truly hardcore players shall be to beat the 25-man normal content with 10 people.


My guild does sorta this with 25 BH, we got him to about 25-30% or so before the enrage, so we brought in a few more people... took our 4/7heroic guild 14 people to kill the 25man BH boss, 1 healed.

Super pro strat, have 3 people die to the breath so you can lust them twice.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby rodos » Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:43 pm

Rokh wrote:
Chicken wrote:Clearly the new challenge for the truly hardcore players shall be to beat the 25-man normal content with 10 people.


My guild does sorta this with 25 BH, we got him to about 25-30% or so before the enrage, so we brought in a few more people... took our 4/7heroic guild 14 people to kill the 25man BH boss, 1 healed.

Super pro strat, have 3 people die to the breath so you can lust them twice.

Maybe you're just being flippant, but does a second lust for 3 people actually outweigh the dps lost from time spent dead, other players spending GCD on resing and buffing you, and losing any food buff you had?
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Lumenactio » Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:15 am

They said over the coming weeks I seem to recall, which implies the nerfs won't come all at once.

Hopefully they stagger them slightly. Perhaps first 4 first, then back 2, then Rag. But I guess we'll see.


Personally, I feel like it has to do with raid groups not progressing as quickly as they had estimated and they're trying to put people where they want them to be.

It could also mean that they expect raiders to go into 4.3 with a 380ilevel or so, having done SOME heroic raids, and that Deathwing's instance will be brutal and fun. For a while.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby yappo » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:01 am

I believe they're doing this because they have to data to support the assumption that the three nerfed raids echo vacantly with bosses sadly sobbing from loneliness.

Old content is old, nerfed or not. I can, if the RNG gods smile at me, collect a nerfed 359 drop, or I can do dailies at Molten Front and pick up the 365 upgrade. Now convince me I should spend time in the nerfed raids.

Hammering all content to the basement halfway into the content patch, however, seems counterproductive. In that sense the ICC solution was better.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Passionario » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:28 am

yappo wrote:In that sense the ICC solution was better.


I suspect that the percentage of raid groups who actually disabled the ICC buff was extremely low. And if the vast majority of players will choose the easier option, why not implement it directly in the form of straight-out nerfs?
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby yappo » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:32 am

Passionario wrote:
yappo wrote:In that sense the ICC solution was better.


I suspect that the percentage of raid groups who actually disabled the ICC buff was extremely low. And if the vast majority of players will choose the easier option, why not implement it directly in the form of straight-out nerfs?


I was rather thinking that they don't have to start a maximum nerf from day go. 5% nerf, followed by 10% nerf, etc, etc would be better, hence my reference to ICC.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby mavfin » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:30 am

yappo wrote:I believe they're doing this because they have to data to support the assumption that the three nerfed raids echo vacantly with bosses sadly sobbing from loneliness.


I'm not sure what game you're playing. The T11 bosses on my realms are NOT lonely at all. I see pugs going on them all the time, and a lot of 'more casual' guilds doing guild runs of T11 because it's *fun* for them to go kill some bosses with friends, and yes, those guilds can still wipe in T11 raids, because the stuff that's second nature to you or me, they have to work at. Of course, some of you think they shouldn't get to raid at all, but, Blizzard disagrees.

As far as the nerfs, I saw a lot of talk here that tiers shouldn't be 6 months, they should be more like 3 months. Well, now they're nerfing the raids for more people to kill the bosses after 3 months, and there's a lot of QQ about it. I'm sure they know how many *new kills by new people* they're getting every week now, and when they stopped getting enough each week, they decided to open it up.

There's a lot of raiders out there who would rather kill the bosses with their 'more casual' friends, rather than leave those friends behind to join a 'focused raid guild'. Those people have gotten to beat their head on the wall for three months while the focused guilds got their chance. Now it's their turn. If you don't get your kills before the nerfs, then maybe you aren't focused enough, IMO.
Last edited by mavfin on Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:48 am

Passionario wrote:
yappo wrote:In that sense the ICC solution was better.


I suspect that the percentage of raid groups who actually disabled the ICC buff was extremely low. And if the vast majority of players will choose the easier option, why not implement it directly in the form of straight-out nerfs?


But there's still an option. With the new changes, there's no option at all.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby mavfin » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:02 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Passionario wrote:
yappo wrote:In that sense the ICC solution was better.


I suspect that the percentage of raid groups who actually disabled the ICC buff was extremely low. And if the vast majority of players will choose the easier option, why not implement it directly in the form of straight-out nerfs?


But there's still an option. With the new changes, there's no option at all.


The reason it's not being put in this time is that no one used it when it was there before. If you take the time to put the option in and no one uses it, you're not going to bother with it the next time. Personally, I think this line of thought is just QQ anyway, because there was so much discussion of this the first time where so many said "Well, we *could* click it off, but the other guilds won't click it off because of progression, so we don't dare do it either." Even the guilds who weren't in the progression race, and there was one particular person here I can think of who ranted about it the most...wouldn't click it off, and then was unhappy when the kills came with the buff, which made no sense to me at all.
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