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Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:57 am

Bandit2568 wrote:We didn't nerf T11 heroics so why gets T12 heroics nerfed.

I suspect they looked at their data gathering for how many people ran Heroic T11 content post-4.2.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Shoju » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:59 am

Ugh. We are 6/7 and starting to make work on Rags. This pisses me off. I don't want to kill nerfed rags. i want to kill NORMAL @#$&*()_+ING RAGNAROS
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:07 am

KysenMurrin wrote:
Bandit2568 wrote:We didn't nerf T11 heroics so why gets T12 heroics nerfed.

I suspect they looked at their data gathering for how many people ran Heroic T11 content post-4.2.

Didn't help that they also nerfed valor points coming from those heroic bosses.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:10 am

I think it's unfortunate that they feel the need to nerf heroic modes along with normal modes. What happened to "normal mode is there for the more casual and hard modes are there for people who would like more of a challenge?" I don't necessarily LIKE that format, but it's certainly better than straight nerfs across all raids.

We're also only 1/7 heroic mode and I really don't want the changes to heroic modes. I'm going to feel cheap and nasty when the nerfs go in and we kill the bosses we're having difficulty on without much trouble.

Also, nerfs to normal modes also tend to make the timing of certain fights really off. (Although that does happen with gear upgrades as well I suppose.)
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby valura » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:15 am

Without going pro or con about the upcoming FL norm and HC nerfs, I have to say Blizzard has handled Cataclysm in a very ambiguous way. The shared lockout was (and still is) a very stinking way of gating content. Shared raid lockout would’ve made complete sense if they had kept the old loot tables. Either one is perfectly fine, but together they create a big schism between the dedicated (hardcore/pro) raiders and the casuals, which contradicts Blizzards own pre-Cata statement, that they wanted as many players as possible to explore as much from the game as possible, including endgame content.

Another way they stalled character progression was the introduction of the Valor Cap. If we just go look to ICC content, we could get Emblems of Frost (EoF) up the gazoo, as long as you were making an effort, up to a maximum of 93 (!) per week, which in current content would translate to 6510 Valor Points (1 EoF = 70 VP, since ICC boss kill awarded 2 EoF). Taken into account that we now have a shared lockout, and after removing all duplicate EoFs, we still could get 56 EoF or 3920 VP per week. The current weekly maximum of 980 VP doesn’t seem like much of a reward we’re getting… Offcourse ppl that are valor capped will still go into raids for progression, achievements and upgrades, but the other way around unfortunately doesn’t work so well. All to many times, ppl will not join (queue) for a Zul, because thay are valor capped from the raid. Not even the goodie bag will motivate tanks or healers, when there’s nothing to be gained by doing a heroic, except the <1% odd chance to get a rare mount or pet…

Up to a certain point everything worked out fine. Most of the casual guilds/raiders had 10/12 normal where most of the dedicated (hardcore/pro) guilds raiders had 10/12 HC before the launch of FL. Nerfing normal content was unseen, and catered to the casuals who couldn’t get passed Cho’gall, Nefarian or Al’Akir, as well as the occasional raiders who relied on PuGs or an invite from a casual guild missing 1 (or more) players. Mission statement completed : Maximum amount of people get to see content without completely trivialising it.

As for the announced upcoming nerfs starting September 19th… Although it does not affect me directly, I do find it quite odd that they’re gonna nerf both normal and heroics, and extremely odd that they would do so only 84 days after the content was released. I guess they either didn’t think it through, made it too hard (read: "time consuming") to start with, and did not anticipate the estimated rate of progression correctly. Also the fact that they obviously did not take the summer holidays, and subsequent massive drop in raids into account, might be attributed to Blizzard’s shortsightedness.

Let’s just say they messed a lot of little things up, and they’re now using a hail mary pass in an attempt to get the community back on track with whatever perceived or projected schedule they have…

What Blizzard needs to learn in regard to raiding is : You can keep some people happy all of the time, you can keep all people happy some of the time, but you can never keep all people happy all of the time.

This whole ordeal also makes it clear that the rumors about 4.3 coming soon, and Cata being a short expansion (18 months instead of 24 months), are closer to the truth than many believed. Why would Blizzard rush 4.2 content if not because 4.3 content and the subsequent next XPAC are lurking around the corner. If the next XPAC were indeed scheduled for November-December 2012, and 4.3 is the final major patch of Cataclysm (which they already confirmed on more than one occasion), where would the need be to expediate game progression 14 months in advance? I thnink we may start bracing ourselves for more than one major announcement to be made at BlizzCon 2011 (which just happens to be at the end of the week they intend to start the nerfing…)
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:16 am

Another bizzaro thing... they were complaining that too many people were obtaining the legendary staff... so they nerfed drop rates of the items. Only to have people go ballistic, so they upped it again. Now they're nerfing the content on both modes, making it even more accessible to people to complete their staff. o.O
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Chicken » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:22 am

Clearly the new challenge for the truly hardcore players shall be to beat the 25-man normal content with 10 people.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Treck » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:29 am

Lieris wrote:Our group 1 (they have killed heroic Ragnaros) like the idea of these nerfs because they've already got the prestige of the pre-nerf kill a few weeks ago and it means they can now gear up their alts really fast. I imagine most other top 50 guilds are like this.

At the other extreme, those who just want to PUG a raid every now and then will be happy too.

And that's the problem, these extreme nerfs and the shunting people from tier to tier just caters to these two extreme sets of players with everyone else caught in the middle who just want to progress at their own pace on decently tuned content feeling really put off.

Honestly, i dont mind the icc buff beeing implemented again.
Just tune the fights originally to be fought without the buff.
After youve killed it once, you dont really care about it getting nerfed, cuz you know allready you can do it, nerfing it will just make it less painfull going back.
Sure its good with content staying the same aswell, so people dont slack off before new and fresh content starts.
All that matters anyway is WHEN you kill a boss, having the LK hc achievement isnt really much to come with these days, as pretty much anyone can have it. So if they nerf them slowly, atleast those who cant make progress normally, will come further.
What i dont like is gamechanging nerfs without notice.
Atleast now they are saying "were nerfing the shit out of everything next week" rather than just hotfixing Rag.
But it should be nerfed slowly and periodicly, not a massive nerf 3months after content comes, and not care about it anymore.
You want people to spend the time on progressing, not just giving up, or facerolling it all.

Looking at firelands, i think it could have worked here aswell, it beats nerfing shit all the time, and most likely a lot less to care about.
Altho everchanging dps numbers are annoying for world of logs ;(

Pugs are fine and all, but i dont see why they would nerf heroicmodes (except rag).
+1k guilds are 6/7, how many guilds do they wanna have in that situation?
Rag is still a "hard" encounter, the problem with rag was that he was to much of a stepup from the others, so nerfing him down a bit made sense.
If they remove 20% of the hp on the other encounters, then the step up would be bigger again.

Looking back at Ulduar that was more or less the first raid with multiple hardmodes, normalmode bosses were easy -> hard, the further in you got.
Thats one of the reasons i feel it was such a success.
The "hardmodes" were all hard, and so guilds with higher ambitions, had something to do.
Guilds who settled for less, still had the normalmodes further into the instance to kill, and they would likely not even care about trying the hardmodes.
Now, we have a raid with 7bosses, first 6 beeing pretty much the same difficulty, and then number 7 much harder (this is true in both normal and heroic).
What we should have is 7 bosses, with difficulty from faceroll - easy - medium - hardish - hard - pretty damn hard.
With that concept, guilds who can kill one, can pretty much get all the way to the end boss.
Hardmodes were in the game to challenge "hardcore" players.
If normalmodes are challenging, then you got something to progress on, If you wanna deal with heroicmodes, dont come whining on it beeing to hard, cuz its suppose to be hard, or atleast, thats the way its suppose to be.
But its not, these days theres not 7 bosses in firelands. Theres 14, starting to do heroicmodes after killing the last boss is as normal as going on boss #2 after killing boss #1.

They want content pugged? Nerfing heroicmodes wont make them puggable if normalmodes are to hard to pug.
Normalmodes used to be easy, then to many vanilla lovers thought the game was so much better before others started playing it, so blizzard caved in and made normalmodes hard again, and obviously pugs stopped happening, people quit, the server community died as there was no reason to care about the others on the server and so were in this situation.

Making normalmodes easy again would make them puggable, and maybe give back some community.
Then on the other hand introducing raidfinder might also do the oposite, as the dungeon finder was also a critical blow to the servercommunity.
But if normalmodes are to easy, guilds who settle at just killing the bosses but still wants to be challenged enough so that they actually have to play the game properly, wont be happy "having" to kill heroic bosses.
And if you start doing heroicbosses, you ultimately wanna kill them all at some point, but if you realise your not gonna do that, then why bother starting heroicmodes at all?
So imo, the game would turn out better adding a 3rd difficulty, aka easymode (they wont call it that as thats degrading to those who can only do easymode), the difficult part for blizz would have to tune 3 sets of gear rather than 2.
But honestly, if they are allready implementing an easymode, so people dont have to know how to play the game to beat it, is there much reason to tune gear for them? Id say ignore them, give them blue items with purple text and call it a day, their rets will prolly reforge into spirit anyway, so whats the point in proper tuning.

I can understand them nerfing normalmodes, IF they feel it should be puggable, or if they think the general success rate of average guild is to low, then sure nerf it.
They didnt nerf t11 heroics, but since we all got better gear from t12, going back to do t11 heroics would feel as if its "nerfed".
If t12 nerfs are to big, a lot of guilds are gonna run out of things to do.
But then theres always alts, and if t12 heroic content is easy, then you can do it on multiple chars.

What matters in the end is to make people keep playing the game, if people like playing or not, thats another thing as long as they play.
Honestly sometimes i feel blizzard has tried satisfying everyone a bit to much.
Everyone cant be happy, and they gotta understand that.
Changing something might be good for some, and might be bad for some.
Giving "hardcore" raiders what they want, doesnt end up so well for the casual player.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:29 am

I said it in the frustrations thread... Why not go with a Varyan/Garrosh buff mechanism used in ICC? It's a progressive buff/nerf that can be turned off if needed be.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Shoju » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:34 am

An NPC who can turn on and turn off a 20% buff would be a fantastic mechanic IMO. But then, I'm also finding issue with the new raid lock structure. It really plays hell on the way my guild raids. Heroic modes mind you, where we have sometimes as many as 6+ people different per roster night to night, and were able to achieve hard mode kills. We just can't do that in the new raid lock system.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:36 am

So what is the ideal length of time for a raid tier to last?

I do think the nerfs seem unnecessary, by the way. There needs to be more consistency. If they want everyone to experience the raid instances regardless of skill (or availability of 9 other capable players), then nerfing normal modes and letting them go wild works. But Heroic modes are irrelevant in that reasoning.

What's the purpose behind wanting more people to clear Heroic content? It makes the content not Heroic any longer, and doesn't match the stated purpose of the Normal/Heroic split.

On the other hand, the Normal/Heroic split means there's a gear gap between guilds entering each new tier which probalby makes things trickier to design.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:41 am

KysenMurrin wrote:So what is the ideal length of time for a raid tier to last?

Unfortunately, the generic answer for anyone is "when my guild feels done with them."

For me, five to six months feels ideal for a tier of content. But, it depends on what that content is. Six months of ToC and I would've said that felt like way too much.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:42 am

Shoju wrote:An NPC who can turn on and turn off a 20% buff would be a fantastic mechanic IMO. But then, I'm also finding issue with the new raid lock structure. It really plays hell on the way my guild raids. Heroic modes mind you, where we have sometimes as many as 6+ people different per roster night to night, and were able to achieve hard mode kills. We just can't do that in the new raid lock system.


I'd even set up the raid/buff in a gradient. 20%, 10%, 5% and no buffs. And really only for normal modes.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby PsiVen » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:43 am

KysenMurrin wrote:So what's the ideal duration of a raid tier before nerfs or new content?


I don't think there is a hard and fast rule, but there's plenty of precedent we can look at. The 3.0 nerfs to Sunwell angered some people but were fairly well accepted because hundreds of guilds had killed Kil'jaeden and those who hadn't were stuck on one boss or another for so long that they were ready to move on.

2.4 to 3.0 was March 25 - October 14: that's 6.5 months. Six months is probably a decent figure, and it doesn't sound like the Deathwing raid tier is going to be as big as ICC since WotA was stripped out into a 5-man; it's not coming out next month. Blizzard is basically trying to make 2 months of nerfed content part of the tier's lifespan, and that just doesn't work.
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Re: Massive Firelands Nerfs Starting Next Week

Postby Treck » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:44 am

You know what I noticed? Nobody panics when things go according to plan. Even if the plan is horrifying. If tomorrow I tell the press that like a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all, part of the plan. But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds!

Quoted since its the truth!
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