Mastery nerf or Deathwing's Radiance

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Mastery nerf or Deathwing's Radiance

Postby Fenrìr » Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:21 pm

So with 4.3 just around the corner, more and more people are going to be reaching the 102.4% mark. Do you think Blizzard will nerf mastery, or do what they said they wouldn't and give us Deathwing's Radiance?
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Re: Mastery nerf or Deathwing's Radiance

Postby Worldie » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:27 am

I rather believe they will tune the damage about block capped tanks.

Not just Paladins are block capped now, warriors in top t12 391 gear are as well.
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Re: Mastery nerf or Deathwing's Radiance

Postby Levantine » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:30 am

And because of that fact, druids and death knights are starting to lag behind in increasingly noticeable ways. Something has to give and nerfing plate mastery seems to be the easiest and most sensible option.
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Re: Mastery nerf or Deathwing's Radiance

Postby Worldie » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:40 am

They can't just, go and say "ok we'll nerf mastery again now you need EVEN MORE mastery to cap.

They would have to adjust it somehow, don't ask me how.

And I still remember GC saying that they'd not care of tanks get block capped at start of this expansion... sighface. They could have actually made like in TBC, assume plate tanks were block capped and balance everything about that...
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Re: Mastery nerf or Deathwing's Radiance

Postby Fetzie » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:22 am

They don't need to increase the amount of mastery needed to cap if they don't want us block capping. They can just make gear without mastery.
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Re: Mastery nerf or Deathwing's Radiance

Postby Crimsonheart » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:40 am

or we can just reforge off mastery, it isnt hard.
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Re: Mastery nerf or Deathwing's Radiance

Postby Treck » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:00 am

If they would give us a reason to wanna go over the masterycap, it would work aswell.
Personally i think they will change our mastery talents somewhat.
They cant just nerf the ammount of mastery you need, then tanks gearing up for is gonna have a hard time.
They might nerf it slightly for warriors, sicne they still rely on critical block anyway, but we would need some reason to want more mastery.
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Re: Mastery nerf or Deathwing's Radiance

Postby Lieris » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:19 am

Or make other stats better instead of being total dogshit next to mastery. Once you've got full CTC it's like, now what? All tank upgrades are really incremental because you really don't need that much stamina, threat stats are useless and avoidance has ridiculous diminishing returns.
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Re: Mastery nerf or Deathwing's Radiance

Postby Worldie » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:57 am

The problem with our mastery right now is that it's completely different from other classes (even non tanks) masteryes.
It provides a unreliable damage reduction up to CTC, after which it provides a flat damage reduction that scales with content and not with the amount of mastery we got... sounds wrong to me.
Look at for example DK/Druid masteryes, it does not cap, and scales with their HP / AP (and very little for DK with the size of hits) and the amount of mastery, like for DPS classes.

How to fix it, well i got no idea. Of course a less elegant way would be just addin a secondary effect to our mastery, for example increasing the % blocked similarly to how warriors gain critical block chance.
However, in my opinion, they should just put block rating back where it was, allow wars / palas to block cap at the expense of hp / avoidance / dps / mastery, and invent a new form of damage reduction for a new mastery for both classes.
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Re: Mastery nerf or Deathwing's Radiance

Postby Sabindeus » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:15 pm

They're going to revamp our masteries. I think this is already more or less confirmed. However I also think we'll see some amount of Deathwing Radiance.
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Re: Mastery nerf or Deathwing's Radiance

Postby Treck » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:33 pm

I really hope they will manage to redesign mastery so they dont have to put in a Deathwing Radiance.
Imo that kind of debuff is a perfect example of bad design from blizzard in the first place.

What they HAVE said is that they will revamp all tanks.
I personally dont think they are gonna make much changes about the tanking classes in 4.3, think most will be done for the next expancion.
That said, they will obviously do some changes for 4.3 aswell. I guess we just have to wait and see :P
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Re: Mastery nerf or Deathwing's Radiance

Postby lythac » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:45 pm

Treck wrote:I really hope they will manage to redesign mastery so they dont have to put in a Deathwing Radiance.
Imo that kind of debuff is a perfect example of bad design from blizzard in the first place.


I don't mind Radiance if it is applied to all tiers in an increasing amount. So boss Expertise. Balanced so you can block cap but at a significant loss to EH, making a MEH set valued again.
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Re: Mastery nerf or Deathwing's Radiance

Postby Treck » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:07 pm

Personally, like i said i feel the DW radiance idea is a sign of bad design.
As the expansion goes on, you SHOULD get better and better gear, and feel like your getting more and more invincible.
The bosses obviously gets stronger and stronger to counteract.
If they need to "nerf" us to bring the bosses up to par? Feels like weak design personally.
If they would bring a stacking radiance debuff that gets a new stack for each new tier, whats the point in getting more gear? Then you might aswell make every tier drop the same gear, as every raid would be balanced around the tanks taking the same ammount of "dps" in every raid instance.

If a boss here and there has some special mechanic that avoids blocks/dodge/parry, that would be cool, but just the debuff kinda way i dont agree with.
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Re: Mastery nerf or Deathwing's Radiance

Postby PsiVen » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:12 pm

I don't think they can really pull off Radiance this time around. Taking off 14% dodge and all miss chance wouldn't even stop us from block capping easily in T13 gear, and any more than that would put plate tanks at below-zero dodge rating with no incentive to get enough to pass 0%. They would have to awkwardly impose a penalty directly on mastery rating and bring us all the way back to T11 levels of mastery investment required to get capped.

They're going to run into this every expansion until they decide to rescale ratings per tier (which they claimed Cataclysm would bring, but quickly abandoned the idea as it was too confusing I guess), or give us different stats to pump with well-behaved scaling. Personally, I think relying on crits/procs/perfect rotations for consistent baseline damage reduction isn't particularly fun; I wouldn't want to move to a druid/DK model. I always liked the old block value system though its scaling issues were obvious -- perhaps a new system would remove chance to block (set it at 100% of unavoided hits) and make it 20% baseline + extra amounts.

Worldie wrote:I rather believe they will tune the damage about block capped tanks.

Not just Paladins are block capped now, warriors in top t12 391 gear are as well.


That may be, but they have significantly less HP in exchange for better chance at crit blocks. I'm not sure the balance is going to work when T13 has paladins pumping nearly all mastery off their gear and slamming stamina for lack of anything else, while warriors do the same but are left with ~25k less HP due to the higher mastery investment... or pump over-cap mastery for superior DR at the cost of much more HP than that.
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Re: Mastery nerf or Deathwing's Radiance

Postby lythac » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:22 pm

Treck wrote:Personally, like i said i feel the DW radiance idea is a sign of bad design.
1) As the expansion goes on, you SHOULD get better and better gear, and feel like your getting more and more invincible.
2) The bosses obviously gets stronger and stronger to counteract.
3) If they need to "nerf" us to bring the bosses up to par? Feels like weak design personally.
4) If they would bring a stacking radiance debuff that gets a new stack for each new tier, whats the point in getting more gear? Then you might aswell make every tier drop the same gear, as every raid would be balanced around the tanks taking the same ammount of "dps" in every raid instance.

If a boss here and there has some special mechanic that avoids blocks/dodge/parry, that would be cool, but just the debuff kinda way i dont agree with.


1) You should get stronger against bosses you have already defeated.
2) The boss would need to get stronger in either a) larger hits, b) expertise, c) unavoidable damage. The boss should be increasing in a for increasing healer throughput regardless, but without b or c to maintain a threat of tank death damage will need to become too spikey again and we are back to late wrath model.
3) Well, not nerf us buff the boss.
4) It wouldn't work quite that way because a tank undergeared for the instance would not have the same avoidance/block as a geared tank and therefore not have the option of blockcapping. And also take more damage.
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