About talent tree "bloating" and reduction

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About talent tree "bloating" and reduction

Postby Questioner » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:01 am

I see a lot of posts asking for the prot tree to be reduced in talent point requirements. Personally, I think our tree is fine. You should not be able to get everything you want. This allows for different character specs, which is a great thing. The only way to not have a cookie cutter spec is to have more good choices than you could possibly take.

Seriously, the "omg I cant have it all" talk is really starting to get on my nerves. Making hard choices is fun! Have you ever thought of it that way?

Edit: To be clear, I am talking about with the 2.3 changes.
Last edited by Questioner on Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Marle » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:21 am

Erm... no. There's too many talents that we really need to have, which leaves no room for variety in talent specs. I don't mind dropping one talent to have some room to pick up another. I intensely dislike not actually having a choice about it.
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Postby Nemi » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:29 am

They only need to free up a couple points not make everything a 1/1. Perhaps changing 1-2 5/5's to 3/3's would do it for me.
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Postby Melathys » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:32 am

The bloated prot tree means that we -can't- have a variety of specs. How fun would it be to be able to spec into holy a bit, and get improved seal of righteousness? I'd love to.

As it is, already with 49 talents into prot, we're trying to figure out what to drop to pick up the new combat expertise. So there will be even less room for variety as combat expertise and its 10% stamina boost will be standard.

Steamline the protection tree and let us have variety, please.
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Postby Questioner » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:15 am

I see many people claiming they need 1H spec, precision, imp judgement and avenger's shield. These are all threat talents. The warriors talents trees allows for many many more talents to be possible threat talents.

Yet, they are viewed as personal preference there, and mandatory here?

Would there be any discussion on this board at all about talents specs if you could get 12 in holy, 51 in prot, and 18 in ret? Absolutely not. And this is why you are wrong if you think we are forced into a talent spec because there are too many choices.

Look at this build (I am not endorsing this build):

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

It has every single survivability talent you could concievably reach except for Imp LoH. You WANT the ability to take more talents, not NEED.

I am all for buffs to prot, just as I would be all about buffs to any class I play. However, let's not be silly. Choice is good. And yes, you CAN choose to go for more threat or survivability or utility, and prot warriors do it all the time.
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Postby DeadMilliken » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:18 am

The protection tree for paladins is only rivaled by the combat tree for rogues in sheer total number of talent points to use in it.

(*And the combat rogue has to have a 3rd hand / Weapon talent...if they only talent for 2 weapon talents...prot is slimmer)

We have the same amount of bloat as if we were an MS Warrior that picked up every single weapon specialization.
Last edited by DeadMilliken on Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Questioner » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:18 am

Melathys wrote:Steamline the protection tree and let us have variety, please.


Streamlining the protection tree would only result in everyone getting most everything. The only way to have different specs is to have more good talents than you can possibly select at once.
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Postby kaisaa » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:22 am

I am afraid I don't see it as a problem for a tank to be able to take all the tanking talents in the tree. If we could get all the tanking talents and have a few points to play with for "fun" talents to provide some utility and customization I would be happier.
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Postby DeadMilliken » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:26 am

Questioner wrote:
Melathys wrote:Steamline the protection tree and let us have variety, please.


Streamlining the protection tree would only result in everyone getting most everything. The only way to have different specs is to have more good talents than you can possibly select at once.


I don't disagree...however by the same token, Protection talents come in two basic varieties...near manditory and worthless. There are "very" few that are in the middle.

What needs to be done is spreading the talents out so so many aren't considered manditory so deep in the tree, allowing individuals to spread their wings in the Holy/Ret trees more easily without hurting their tanking.
(*Ex:No one in the right mind is going to have more than 21 points in Ret anymore...the 10% stamina is too good to go heavy threat on)

All 2.3 did was cement an old "worthless to many" talent into mandatory status making everyone reshuffle points to pick it up.
I have not seen one single build refusing the 10% to stamina....talents shouldn't be "that" good "that" deep.
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Postby Belarkan » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:35 am

Questioner wrote:Would there be any discussion on this board at all about talents specs if you could get 12 in holy, 51 in prot, and 18 in ret? Absolutely not.


So far there has been some. I think that was back in the end of august.
Some other posts have been about getting the sanctity aura for heavy threat generation.

Anyway, do we need 1h spec ? not, really no since threat isn't really an issue for paladins.
There are a couple of other talents we could get rid of if you really think twice about what you really need.
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Postby Ferrosis » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:43 am

DeadMilliken wrote:
Questioner wrote:
Melathys wrote:Steamline the protection tree and let us have variety, please.


Streamlining the protection tree would only result in everyone getting most everything. The only way to have different specs is to have more good talents than you can possibly select at once.


I don't disagree...however by the same token, Protection talents come in two basic varieties...near manditory and worthless. There are "very" few that are in the middle.

What needs to be done is spreading the talents out so so many aren't considered manditory so deep in the tree, allowing individuals to spread their wings in the Holy/Ret trees more easily without hurting their tanking.
(*Ex:No one in the right mind is going to have more than 21 points in Ret anymore...the 10% stamina is too good to go heavy threat on)

All 2.3 did was cement an old "worthless to many" talent into mandatory status making everyone reshuffle points to pick it up.
I have not seen one single build refusing the 10% to stamina....talents shouldn't be "that" good "that" deep.


Just a quick question, what gear are you changing when you get the 10% stamina increase in 2.3? or what will Combat Expertise enable you to tank that you are currently unable to tank?
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Postby Belarkan » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:53 am

Ferrosis wrote:what will Combat Expertise enable you to tank that you are currently unable to tank?


It will make the encounters less random since we'll have more life.
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Postby DeadMilliken » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:57 am

Ferrosis wrote:
DeadMilliken wrote:
Questioner wrote:
Melathys wrote:Steamline the protection tree and let us have variety, please.


Streamlining the protection tree would only result in everyone getting most everything. The only way to have different specs is to have more good talents than you can possibly select at once.


I don't disagree...however by the same token, Protection talents come in two basic varieties...near manditory and worthless. There are "very" few that are in the middle.

What needs to be done is spreading the talents out so so many aren't considered manditory so deep in the tree, allowing individuals to spread their wings in the Holy/Ret trees more easily without hurting their tanking.
(*Ex:No one in the right mind is going to have more than 21 points in Ret anymore...the 10% stamina is too good to go heavy threat on)

All 2.3 did was cement an old "worthless to many" talent into mandatory status making everyone reshuffle points to pick it up.
I have not seen one single build refusing the 10% to stamina....talents shouldn't be "that" good "that" deep.


Just a quick question, what gear are you changing when you get the 10% stamina increase in 2.3? or what will Combat Expertise enable you to tank that you are currently unable to tank?


You know the answer as well as I do. "Generally Nothing" About the most interesting thing that will probably happen is the first Gruul after patch when the raid leader says XX is tanking I'll screw with him by pointing out I have more HP than XX. (*I outgear every warrior I usually gruul with, I'm only 700 away from the "MT"). Of course then again this does goes to show that IF I pressed the matter...I could be MT'ing Gruul because of this change.

My comment is that no one is considering taking less than 40points in Prot anymore. Combat Expertise honestly appears now to be only rivaled by Holy Shield and Imp Righteous Fury.

Pre-2.3 the most common spec was 0/49/12...however there WAS a lively population of 0/33-37/24-28 that took ret's threat bonuses over WE / AS / and AD
Last edited by DeadMilliken on Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ferrosis » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:00 am

Belarkan wrote:
Ferrosis wrote:what will Combat Expertise enable you to tank that you are currently unable to tank?


It will make the encounters less random since we'll have more life.


:)

I didn't know that Combat Expertise would effect the placement of Infernals on Prince or the grouping of people on Shatters.

Seriously though, if you are already MTing HKM/Gruul/Mags do you really think that an additional 10% health is going to change much beyond people's perception?

(I conceed that it will, perhaps, enable some gear changes to allow for more avoidance or threat - hence my original question - what gear is being rotated in/out.)

EDIT:
You know the answer as well as I do. "Generally Nothing" About the most interesting thing that will probably happen is the first Gruul after patch when the raid leader says XX is tanking I'll screw with him by pointing out I have more HP than XX. (*I outgear every warrior I usually gruul with, I'm only 700 away from the "MT")


See I already MT Gruul even with my less HP.
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Postby Suikano » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:02 am

There are still plenty of e-peen raid leaders who go by hp/ac when making calls about who's tanking with no understanding of the mechanics.
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