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Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:25 am

poptart wrote:Right now, I see Holy Paladin use of Holy Power to be pretty unitary at worse and Binary at best. Holy Power for Holy would be MUCH better if there were a more meaningful set of choices to spend it on.

I think Holy has the best set-up of earning Holy Power but a pretty lack luster set of how to spend it.

Poptart


Ok, but my point was that Holy Power made the spec more interesting and engaging than the FoL spam that it used to be. While I'm sure it could be still improved, regardless of how many Holy Power sinks the spec may have or how you think it *should* work, the fact is that the addition of Holy Power to the class made Holy spec more interesting. That's the only claim I made.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Shoju » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:55 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Ok, but my point was that Holy Power made the spec more interesting and engaging than the FoL spam that it used to be. While I'm sure it could be still improved, regardless of how many Holy Power sinks the spec may have or how you think it *should* work, the fact is that the addition of Holy Power to the class made Holy spec more interesting. That's the only claim I made.


While it is a pedestrian change for prot at best.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Koatanga » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:16 pm

theckhd wrote:There are several good reasons that mana doesn't work well as a resource for prot. It makes a lot more sense to have a controllable resource that's independent of raid buffs.

The point is that swapping from Mana to Holy Power or Flying Spaghetti is not by itself compelling.

All of the uses for Holy Power are currently optional. DPS gains are optional when threat is irrelevant. WoG heals are optional when healers can handle the load by themselves. So really, Holy Power is more of a toy than a necessary part of our existence. It's nice to be able to use our HP abilities, but not critical to our function.

The proof is in our gearing: If HP was compelling, we would be hit and expertise capping in order to maximise HP generation. It is simply not important enough for us to do so.

I agree that Holy Power makes more sense than mana for us, and I like the concept of Holy Power. I like that it is generated by us performing actions, and is not reliant on us getting hit (like Rage) or doled out on a regular schedule (like runes).

Now they just need to do something with it that is relevant to paladin tanks - give us a reason to want the resource.

When Holy Power is important enough for us to cap hit/exp, then they have done their job, IMO. Whether or not that is a good design thing is another debate - perhaps we should get HP whether we hit or not, and leave hit/exp out of tanking - but it is that level of relevance that I am looking for from active mitigation changes.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:18 pm

Shoju wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Ok, but my point was that Holy Power made the spec more interesting and engaging than the FoL spam that it used to be. While I'm sure it could be still improved, regardless of how many Holy Power sinks the spec may have or how you think it *should* work, the fact is that the addition of Holy Power to the class made Holy spec more interesting. That's the only claim I made.


While it is a pedestrian change for prot at best.


Yes well despite all the tanking I've done, I am a Ret paladin at heart. Ret was the original tanking tree! :P

I'd love if HoPo were more meaningful to Prot but I don't think you can deny its positive effect on the class as a whole.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Shoju » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:22 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Shoju wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Ok, but my point was that Holy Power made the spec more interesting and engaging than the FoL spam that it used to be. While I'm sure it could be still improved, regardless of how many Holy Power sinks the spec may have or how you think it *should* work, the fact is that the addition of Holy Power to the class made Holy spec more interesting. That's the only claim I made.


While it is a pedestrian change for prot at best.


Yes well despite all the tanking I've done, I am a Ret paladin at heart. Ret was the original tanking tree! :P

I'd love if HoPo were more meaningful to Prot but I don't think you can deny its positive effect on the class as a whole.


Well, I haven't bothered with ret since it was whack a mole proc a chance at some awesome ability, and I don't heal on a paladin. Its not my bag. Prot IS the paladin class for me.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:27 pm

Shoju wrote:Well, I haven't bothered with ret since it was whack a mole proc a chance at some awesome ability, and I don't heal on a paladin. Its not my bag. Prot IS the paladin class for me.


Well just because you haven't bothered doesn't mean:

a. You shouldn't bother. Maybe things have changed and you might like how Ret or Holy plays now?
b. Other people shouldn't bother.
c. Those specs don't matter to the game as a whole.

More importantly, I don't think you can claim that the functionality of the 4.0 Prot Paladin, Holy Power and all, is not superior to that of the 2.0 and 3.0 prot paladins. We're now at the point where the other tanks are eyeing our mitigation abilities with envy... that's like, an amazing concept if you've been playing the game since 1.0.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Dantriges » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:21 pm

Well, it´s not like Holy Power really plays a significant role in our survivability.

And well HP with its binary/unitary choice has improved Holy but everything is an improvement if the former baseline is "Stand there, spam FoL on tank or two via Beacon in Wrath".

And Ret. Well the first attempt was so proccy, As it turned out, it was weak, too. It looked like a wonky mixture of Keep buff up, watch three CDs, hit button when blinky light goes on. And it seems that Ret still has problems keeping up in the damage race.

When we summarise the effect that HP had on paladins it´s more or less:

Spice up the most boring playstyle Blizzard ever made. It did but well that´s hardly an achievement.
Turn Prot into OP with WoG spam, then become meaningless
Working as intened for Ret. The mechanic of HP for Ret is ok, a bit random perhaps with this 15% chance to generate another one. I just don´t like the rest of ret design.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Shoju » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:06 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Shoju wrote:Well, I haven't bothered with ret since it was whack a mole proc a chance at some awesome ability, and I don't heal on a paladin. Its not my bag. Prot IS the paladin class for me.


Well just because you haven't bothered doesn't mean:

a. You shouldn't bother. Maybe things have changed and you might like how Ret or Holy plays now?
b. Other people shouldn't bother.
c. Those specs don't matter to the game as a whole.

More importantly, I don't think you can claim that the functionality of the 4.0 Prot Paladin, Holy Power and all, is not superior to that of the 2.0 and 3.0 prot paladins. We're now at the point where the other tanks are eyeing our mitigation abilities with envy... that's like, an amazing concept if you've been playing the game since 1.0.


A.) I don't play to DPS. I don't play to main spec heal. I play to tank.
b.) I didn't say other people shouldn't bother.
c.) I didn't say that they don't matter to the game as a whole.

I can claim that I liked 3.3 prot paladin more than 4.0 prot paladin. I do believe that I QUIT MY PALADIN after playing in the beta through 4.0 as my main in raiding situations. 4.0 Holy Power Prot is not fun for ME I never said that I didn't understand why people played it. I said I FEEL This was my feelings. my observations.

I don't see the positive side of holy power for the protection spec. That is the spec that I played. I am a tank for my guild. That is what I do. I show up to raids, and the majority of my time is spent as tank. I get to DPS Rhyolith, Baleroc, and *maybe* Domo. Swapping to a different spec on my paladin isn't in the best interest of my enjoyment of the game, or the ability for my guild to be able to consistently raid.

So instead, I quit my paladin and moved on to a class that is enjoyable FOR ME. We can go round and round like this about how you like it, and that you can rationalize it for Prot (by your own admission it is better implemented with holy and ret than prot) and I can keep saying that I don't like it, and it killed the enjoyment of my paladin.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:10 pm

Koatanga wrote:
theckhd wrote:There are several good reasons that mana doesn't work well as a resource for prot. It makes a lot more sense to have a controllable resource that's independent of raid buffs.

The point is that swapping from Mana to Holy Power or Flying Spaghetti is not by itself compelling.

All of the uses for Holy Power are currently optional. DPS gains are optional when threat is irrelevant. WoG heals are optional when healers can handle the load by themselves. So really, Holy Power is more of a toy than a necessary part of our existence. It's nice to be able to use our HP abilities, but not critical to our function.


WoG is a very significant survivability skill. Maybe you don't use it as such, but there are many of us that do. WoG has saved me from more than a handful of deaths this expansion.

Saying "WoG is optional because healers can handle the load" is like saying "Shield Block / Divine Protection / Holy Shield are optional because healers can just heal through it." Maybe they can, but healers make mistakes too. A good tank uses those skills precisely to help avoid dangerous situations where one mistake by a healer would kill you. Throwing that away as "optional" is a little disingenuous.


Koatanga wrote:The proof is in our gearing: If HP was compelling, we would be hit and expertise capping in order to maximise HP generation. It is simply not important enough for us to do so.

That's hardly proof. Are warrior and bear tanks taking off gear to generate more rage on heroic encounters? Are bears hit-capping to maximize Savage Defense procs? You're mistakenly trying to equate "compelling" with "efficient." WoG's cooldown, for example, puts a cap on how quickly you can use HP for survivability. That doesn't make a well-timed wog less compelling, but it does affect how much we value hit and expertise.

If we had a powerful Holy-Shield-esque buff powered by Holy Power, such that 100% uptime was possible only when completely capped on hit and expertise, we might find those stats compelling. That also would be absolutely terrible from a design perspective, because it makes DPS stats grossly more important than survivability stats like dodge and parry. That's really unintuitive for a new or returning tank.

Koatanga wrote:I agree that Holy Power makes more sense than mana for us, and I like the concept of Holy Power. I like that it is generated by us performing actions, and is not reliant on us getting hit (like Rage) or doled out on a regular schedule (like runes).

Now they just need to do something with it that is relevant to paladin tanks - give us a reason to want the resource.

On this point, we agree. SotR is fun, but the removal of threat makes it much less relevant. We should definitely have multiple survivability choices for spending Holy Power, and they should be compelling choices, as you put it. Choosing between WoG (no cooldown) and a temporary block value buff, for example, would be a good start. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see SotR lose a significant portion of its damage but pick up a 2/5/8-second buff that increased block value by 5% (or some such thing, tweak numbers to your liking).

Dantriges wrote:Well, it´s not like Holy Power really plays a significant role in our survivability.

WoG is a significant part of our survivability, if used properly.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Dantriges » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:33 pm

theckhd wrote:
Dantriges wrote:Well, it´s not like Holy Power really plays a significant role in our survivability.

WoG is a significant part of our survivability, if used properly.


Ok. I don´t count how often I use it, but well, wasn´t really the point. It´s probably one of the first buttons most people push (Yeah me too), besides Holy Shield, the other short CD, because of its short cooldown, when we have to act, react or counteract.

So WoG is more limited by its cooldown then Holy Power. At the moment and even before the threat hotfix, the more limiting factor is the cooldown on WoG. HoPo was signifiant when it was the only factor. My personal feeling is, that it´s more cooldown based than HoPo nased. It feels more like it has an annoying HoPo requirement besides its cooldown.

At the moment, you can even sit on your HoPo or you have 20 seconds to refill and let it sit there for the more predictable things. Losing DPS but when it´s more important to have it available, well.

Also we have armor, stamina, dodge, parry, block, Divine Protection, Divine Shield, the angel, Holy Shield, Ardent Defender, LoH, two trinkets, probably with use or proc when bad stuff happens, some potions, healthstone. Draenei and dwarves have another CD with Gift or Stoneform. I think engineers have some others, but I haven´t got an engineer with this skill level, yet. And well the rest of the utility. Sometimes the stuff is very useful.

So I wouldn´t call it very significant that 20 sec Cd WoG is dependant on HoPo, too if we consider our whole defense. At least not significant enough to warrant a resource system for WoG or more threat.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Koatanga » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:40 pm

theckhd wrote:
Koatanga wrote:WoG heals are optional when healers can handle the load by themselves.


WoG is a very significant survivability skill. Maybe you don't use it as such, but there are many of us that do. WoG has saved me from more than a handful of deaths this expansion.


Clearly if WoG saved you from death then your healers couldn't handle the load by themselves, so it is not one of the cases I am talking about.

theckhd wrote:Saying "WoG is optional because healers can handle the load" is like saying "Shield Block / Divine Protection / Holy Shield are optional because healers can just heal through it."

I said "when healers can handle the load by themselves", not "because healers can handle the load by themselves".

When the healers can handle the load just fine, you can choose to use WoG or not - the healers will barely notice it, if at all. On farm content, I use SotR the vast majority of the time. I still use WoG situationally when I have spike damage or healer down time, but I completely disagree that WoG is equally as influential as divine protection or holy shield.

When Baleroc is smacking me in the face, popping WoG is like a fart in a wind storm, while Holy Shield is tremendous.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:51 pm

Koatanga wrote:Clearly if WoG saved you from death then your healers couldn't handle the load by themselves, so it is not one of the cases I am talking about.

theckhd wrote:Saying "WoG is optional because healers can handle the load" is like saying "Shield Block / Divine Protection / Holy Shield are optional because healers can just heal through it."

I said "when healers can handle the load by themselves", not "because healers can handle the load by themselves".

When the healers can handle the load just fine, you can choose to use WoG or not - the healers will barely notice it, if at all. On farm content, I use SotR the vast majority of the time. I still use WoG situationally when I have spike damage or healer down time, but I completely disagree that WoG is equally as influential as divine protection or holy shield.



So, the abilities are optional, except for the situations where they're actually useful. That's not a very useful rule of thumb. You could say that about any survivability cooldown. Hell, "SotR is optional, except when that extra 30k damage matters" is basically the same statement, and equally as meaningless.

The fact that Holy Shield and Divine Protection are stronger cooldowns doesn't make WoG any less powerful.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Koatanga » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:09 pm

theckhd wrote:So, the abilities are optional, except for the situations where they're actually useful. That's not a very useful rule of thumb. You could say that about any survivability cooldown. Hell, "SotR is optional, except when that extra 30k damage matters" is basically the same statement, and equally as meaningless.

The fact that Holy Shield and Divine Protection are stronger cooldowns doesn't make WoG any less powerful.

I don't know why you insist on being deliberately obtuse and playing semantics games with me. I just don't see the point of it, or how it is in any way productive.

I credit you with far too much intelligence to be dumb enough to miss my point that if we had Holy Shield and Judgements of the Just using Holy Power it would be far more compelling than choosing (or apparently not choosing since optimal WoG use is always mandatory) between SotR and WoG.

If you disagree, how about hearing what your version of an interesting active mitigation model would be like?
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Malthrax » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:27 am

theckhd wrote:
Koatanga wrote:Clearly if WoG saved you from death then your healers couldn't handle the load by themselves, so it is not one of the cases I am talking about.

theckhd wrote:Saying "WoG is optional because healers can handle the load" is like saying "Shield Block / Divine Protection / Holy Shield are optional because healers can just heal through it."

I said "when healers can handle the load by themselves", not "because healers can handle the load by themselves".

When the healers can handle the load just fine, you can choose to use WoG or not - the healers will barely notice it, if at all. On farm content, I use SotR the vast majority of the time. I still use WoG situationally when I have spike damage or healer down time, but I completely disagree that WoG is equally as influential as divine protection or holy shield.



So, the abilities are optional, except for the situations where they're actually useful. That's not a very useful rule of thumb. You could say that about any survivability cooldown. Hell, "SotR is optional, except when that extra 30k damage matters" is basically the same statement, and equally as meaningless.

The fact that Holy Shield and Divine Protection are stronger cooldowns doesn't make WoG any less powerful.


If you don't need it, WoG is overheal.
If you do need it, your healers are slacking, failing, or in way over their heads.

In either case, the 20 second cooldown is a far larger driving factor in WoG's usability. Its ties to Holy Power are mostly meaningless.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Shoju » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:36 am

WoG is never "really" Overheal though since it gives you the bubble.
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