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Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Dantriges » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:17 pm

theckhd wrote:A lot of the complaints about Holy Power being "tacked on" probably occur because it's a new system that people aren't used to, but I can't help but think that the shallowness of the resource is partly to blame. If it felt like a real resource that introduced some strategic decision-making to the rotation, would people find it as unpalatable?


Paladins that are still playing are probably used to it by now. It´s more or less the shallowness. There are very few decisions to make what to do with your Holy Power and what we had got limited even more. Two resource systems that barely interact with each other is probably one other point.

It shows that it was implemented rather late in the design process and got several bandaid fixes added. It´s very limited and it already carries a lot of changes that feel a bit clunky. And well the general impression I get fron this is, that it´s tacked on. The non interaction between both resources strengthens this impression.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Koatanga » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:48 pm

Holy Power is a resource, but we already have a resource: Mana. The Devs decided to make mana pretty much meaningless to Pally tanks (except for when we cast lolheals), and introduce another resource instead. Is that compelling? Not particularly.

However, it is only not compelling because of the way it has been implemented. The concept of building up a resource by hitting something has value if the resulting use of that resource is critical. In our case, it's not. We can use it on Inq, SotR, or WoG. Two of those are a DPS increase, and one is a heal. There's nothing critical to maintain with our HP, so it is not compelling as a resource.

This is why I have been an advocate of using HP to provide our active mitigation. It would instantly make us cap hit and expertise, because holy power suddenly becomes a precious commodity that we can't afford to throw away by missing.

I think 3 is too few, although I could see us capping abilities at using 3 per ability. For example, you have 4-5 HP and cast a SotR which uses 3, leaving you 2. Perhaps a deep Prot talent which allows you to store an additional 1 or 2 Holy Power charges. That would create some spec debates for sure.

And I could see us having two forms of mitigation, one using HP to increase the strength of the mitigation and the other having a constant strength but using HP to increase the duration of it. That would give is flexibility in rotation and possibly create a scenario where sometimes it is better to put up a 1-HP Ability2 more often rather than save 3 HP for it and refresh it less often.

In other words, it has the potential to create a situation in which we have choices and can make decisions that impact our effectiveness. That is much more compelling that the current model, which pretty much only has one Best Way.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby theckhd » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:24 pm

Koatanga wrote:Holy Power is a resource, but we already have a resource: Mana. The Devs decided to make mana pretty much meaningless to Pally tanks (except for when we cast lolheals), and introduce another resource instead. Is that compelling? Not particularly.


There are several good reasons that mana doesn't work well as a resource for prot. It makes a lot more sense to have a controllable resource that's independent of raid buffs.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Jeremoot » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:34 pm

theckhd wrote:
Koatanga wrote:Holy Power is a resource, but we already have a resource: Mana. The Devs decided to make mana pretty much meaningless to Pally tanks (except for when we cast lolheals), and introduce another resource instead. Is that compelling? Not particularly.


There are several good reasons that mana doesn't work well as a resource for prot. It makes a lot more sense to have a controllable resource that's independent of raid buffs.


I hope you're not suggesting they turn us into Warriors.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby masterpoobaa » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:42 pm

Heh, holy Raaaaaaaaaaaage.
Yeah mana as a resource for prot/rep has been fail.
I remember lk/bc, either have 100% all the time or struggling not to go oom because of some stupid mechanic like spiritual attunement.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Dantriges » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:25 pm

They more or less eliminated mana as a resource for every close combat spec along time ago. Ok that´s only Ret, Prot and Enhancer Shamans.

Well ok seems that it doesn´t work so well as a resource at least for melle who can´t invest in caster stats.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby RedAces » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:07 am

They didn't eliminate mana as a resource for prot or ret, I'm still in danger of going oom (in both specs) if I mess up J or consecrate too much (or casting Exo or Holy Radiance...).
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby poptart » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:47 am

Sabindeus wrote:...but for Holy and Ret it's [Holy Power] pretty fantastic.


I agree that for Ret, Holy Power seems to introduce a really interesting choice aspect. Once I hit 3x Holy Power, I can:

A. Launch my power Templar's Verdict special attack increasing my DPS. -- OR --
B. Maintain my Inquisition buff for vastly increased melee DPS. -- OR --
C. Activate a CD in Zealotry that greatly increases my Holy Power generation and increases my DPS by generating many, many Templar's Verdict strikes. -- OR --
D. Heal myself or someone else with Word of Glory and get a DPS buff if I heal someone else.

Interesting choices and one that makes Holy Power very interesting for Ret. All increase their primary job (DPS) but do so in different utility ways.

HOWEVER, for Holy, I don't think that Holy Power is interesting at all.

One issue is that I am a strict 10-man raider and dropped Light of Dawn off my talent tree monthes and monthes ago. Yes, I don't even take my tree's 31-point talent because, IMO, for 10-man, it was a very unuseful talent.

I typically run in Firelands with mostly Shaman and Druid healers. As such, their AoE/raid healing capabilites are far above mine just by pure toolkit design. If you need to get a bunch of people healed up little by little (Holy Radiance, Wild Growth, Healing Rain, Chain Heal, multi-target DoTs) do that just fine. The raid does not really need another underpowered, multi-target smallish heal.

Dropping, in some cases, 40k single-target, instant, mana-free bombs is MUCH more important to raid health than launching an underpowered LoD.

So, for me, Holy Power as Holy consists of one choice: Word of Glory. That is not an interesting choice. They could have replaced the exact same funcationality that Holy Power gives Paladins with increases the proc chance of <cannot remember the talent name> that gives us instant cast Flash of Lights. That mechanic (instant cast, decent sized single-target heal), is the same regardless if it is a WoG or a free, instant FoL.

So, for me as a 10-man raider to whom LoD is severly underpowered and lackluster, I don't find Holy Power interesting at all. Single choice is not really a choice.

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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Shoju » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:48 am

Dantriges, are we sharing a brain?

Dantriges wrote:
Paladins that are still playing are probably used to it by now. It´s more or less the shallowness. There are very few decisions to make what to do with your Holy Power and what we had got limited even more. Two resource systems that barely interact with each other is probably one other point.

It shows that it was implemented rather late in the design process and got several bandaid fixes added. It´s very limited and it already carries a lot of changes that feel a bit clunky. And well the general impression I get fron this is, that it´s tacked on. The non interaction between both resources strengthens this impression.


I was used to Holy Power when 4.1 dropped and I changed mains. it was and continues to be, the shallowness of the "resource" mechanic, and the lack of interaction between mana and Holy Power. What did Holy Power introduce that wasn't already being handled by being CD limited?

IMO: Nothing. When WoG didn't have a CD, the smart choice was ALWAYS WoG unless you were in the first 30 seconds and needed the SoR for the threat. Paladins are still limited by Cooldowns even now. The only 2 spells that a prot paladin has that isn't bound by at least a 3 second cooldown are Shield of the Righteous and Inquisition, and even thosespells have "cooldowns", because of the need for holy power.

I have disliked Holy Power from the moment it was introduced on the Beta and I started working with it. Every time I submitted feedback to blizzard it was about the lack of "oomph" to holy power.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:04 am

poptart wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:...but for Holy and Ret it's [Holy Power] pretty fantastic.


I agree that for Ret, Holy Power seems to introduce a really interesting choice aspect. Once I hit 3x Holy Power, I can:

A. Launch my power Templar's Verdict special attack increasing my DPS. -- OR --
B. Maintain my Inquisition buff for vastly increased melee DPS. -- OR --
C. Activate a CD in Zealotry that greatly increases my Holy Power generation and increases my DPS by generating many, many Templar's Verdict strikes. -- OR --
D. Heal myself or someone else with Word of Glory and get a DPS buff if I heal someone else.

Interesting choices and one that makes Holy Power very interesting for Ret. All increase their primary job (DPS) but do so in different utility ways.

HOWEVER, for Holy, I don't think that Holy Power is interesting at all.

One issue is that I am a strict 10-man raider and dropped Light of Dawn off my talent tree monthes and monthes ago. Yes, I don't even take my tree's 31-point talent because, IMO, for 10-man, it was a very unuseful talent.

I typically run in Firelands with mostly Shaman and Druid healers. As such, their AoE/raid healing capabilites are far above mine just by pure toolkit design. If you need to get a bunch of people healed up little by little (Holy Radiance, Wild Growth, Healing Rain, Chain Heal, multi-target DoTs) do that just fine. The raid does not really need another underpowered, multi-target smallish heal.

Dropping, in some cases, 40k single-target, instant, mana-free bombs is MUCH more important to raid health than launching an underpowered LoD.

So, for me, Holy Power as Holy consists of one choice: Word of Glory. That is not an interesting choice. They could have replaced the exact same funcationality that Holy Power gives Paladins with increases the proc chance of <cannot remember the talent name> that gives us instant cast Flash of Lights. That mechanic (instant cast, decent sized single-target heal), is the same regardless if it is a WoG or a free, instant FoL.

So, for me as a 10-man raider to whom LoD is severly underpowered and lackluster, I don't find Holy Power interesting at all. Single choice is not really a choice.

Poptart


Well your issues with LoD notwithstanding (I personally like it) there's also the interaction with being able to stack Holy Power quicker by healing your Beacon or getting 1.5x throughput on two targets by healing someone else so I consider that an interesting choice. I didn't say the entire choice had to be how you SPEND your holy power. Furthermore I like the idea of being able to generate Holy Power faster in melee using Crusader Strike during periods of downtime (or low mana).
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby poptart » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:30 am

Sabindeus wrote:Well your issues with LoD notwithstanding (I personally like it) there's also the interaction with being able to stack Holy Power quicker by healing your Beacon or getting 1.5x throughput on two targets by healing someone else so I consider that an interesting choice. I didn't say the entire choice had to be how you SPEND your holy power. Furthermore I like the idea of being able to generate Holy Power faster in melee using Crusader Strike during periods of downtime (or low mana).


I 100% agree with you; I think the way that Holy has to generate Holy Power is great! I can get it from:

1. Heal Beacon target via Tower
2. Use Crusader Strike
3. Use Holy Shock
4. Take damage via Blessed Life
5. 3x renewal of Holy Power via Eternal Glory

However, I have the issue with how Holy can USE their Holy Power. At best, they get an either/or choice: LoD or WoG (I am not counting Inq because its uses outside of Chim phase 2 are questionable).

At worst, they do not get an either/or choice because most 25-man raiders will use LoD pretty much exclusively because it heals for more and many (not most, many) 10-man or 5-man encounters favor WoG over LoD.

In my perfect world, Holy would have the following choices of how to use Holy Power:

1. Single target heal (Word of Glory)
2. Multi-target heal (Light of Dawn)
3. HoT (single target, adds to ability to pre-plan healing for stuns (Halfus), as tank buffer or target switching heals).
4. Healing Buff (Replacing Divine Favor or Conviction. If we have a secondary resource, let's tie more of our spec specific stuff to it. Why have DF on CD instead of tying it to a resource like Holy Power?)
5. Mana restore. Right now there is little interesting about hitting "Divine Plea." But if your mana restore was "in place of" a mana-free heal....more interesting choices.

Right now, I see Holy Paladin use of Holy Power to be pretty unitary at worse and Binary at best. Holy Power for Holy would be MUCH better if there were a more meaningful set of choices to spend it on.

I think Holy has the best set-up of earning Holy Power but a pretty lack luster set of how to spend it.

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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Flex » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:57 am

Dantriges wrote:They more or less eliminated mana as a resource for every close combat spec along time ago. Ok that´s only Ret, Prot and Enhancer Shamans.

Well ok seems that it doesn´t work so well as a resource at least for melle who can´t invest in caster stats.


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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:02 am

I never understood why hunters need a minimum range they have to keep from their target to be effective -- other ranged dont have that limitation.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Flex » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:05 am

Klaudandus wrote:I never understood why hunters need a minimum range they have to keep from their target to be effective -- other ranged dont have that limitation.


Instant vs Casttimes?
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Dantriges » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:13 am

Flex wrote:
Dantriges wrote:They more or less eliminated mana as a resource for every close combat spec along time ago. Ok that´s only Ret, Prot and Enhancer Shamans.

Well ok seems that it doesn´t work so well as a resource at least for melle who can´t invest in caster stats.


Don't forget hunters who share more in common with melee than casters!


Yeah similar problem for them. At least the went the whole distance and changed their resource instead.
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