Remove Advertisements

Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:08 pm

lolpower made the Paladin class way better imo

/flamesuit
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10455
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Malthrax » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:14 pm

Sabindeus wrote:lolpower made the Paladin class way better imo

/flamesuit



/disagree


but thats ok :D
User avatar
Malthrax
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:23 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Shoju » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:24 pm

Sabindeus wrote:lolpower made the Paladin class way better imo

/flamesuit


Hey, its not for everyone. They have tried hard to make it better, but I still stand by my original statement.

It is complexity for complexity's sake. It wasn't a needed, it doesn't do anything to further the class that you couldn't have done without it.

But, thats all I have to say about that anymore. I love being a death knight. I love the control I have, and I'm hoping 4.3 really fixes some of the glaring holes we have right now.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 6344
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:57 pm

Yeah the Paladin class got all its capability as of 3.0, it didn't need to do anything more. It just needed more challenge and complexity in interaction to be able to execute all that. Having the class be called "faceroll" and "ezmode" was really just unacceptable to me.

I will agree that Holy Power doesn't really impact Prot enough, but for Holy and Ret it's pretty fantastic.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10455
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby halabar » Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:02 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Y It just needed more challenge and complexity in interaction to be able to execute all that. Having the class be called "faceroll" and "ezmode" was really just unacceptable to me.


Sigh.. complexity in interaction for the sake of more complexity is not something I see that increases enjoyment in the game. Giving 12 more buttons to push does not inherently make the game more interesting.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9340
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:05 pm

halabar wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Y It just needed more challenge and complexity in interaction to be able to execute all that. Having the class be called "faceroll" and "ezmode" was really just unacceptable to me.


Sigh.. complexity in interaction for the sake of more complexity is not something I see that increases enjoyment in the game. Giving 12 more buttons to push does not inherently make the game more interesting.


Well ok but that's not what they did. Ret in 3.0 and Ret in 4.0 have similar numbers of buttons, maybe 1 extra regular and a new cooldown... but what they did was add a resource generation constraint that it didn't have previously despite the fact that all other classes had something like that.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10455
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Amirya » Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:19 pm

Sabindeus wrote:but what they did was add a resource generation constraint that it didn't have previously despite the fact that all other classes had something like that.

Going OOM isn't a constraint?

Or are you meaning something else, and I just totally missed it, because I am in awe of the fact that it was cloudy and slightly rainy out today?
Fetzie wrote:The Defias Brotherhood is back, and this time they are acting as racketeers in Goldshire. Anybody wishing to dance for money must now pay them protection money or be charged triple the normal amount when repairing.
Amirya
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3884
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:59 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby theckhd » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:03 pm

Amirya wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:but what they did was add a resource generation constraint that it didn't have previously despite the fact that all other classes had something like that.

Going OOM isn't a constraint?

Or are you meaning something else, and I just totally missed it, because I am in awe of the fact that it was cloudy and slightly rainy out today?


Going OOM as Ret has never been a serious constraint in raiding, no. It wasn't in Wrath, and it isn't now unless you spam Consecrate and Holy Radiance on cooldown.

Could it be a meaningful resource? Maybe, if tuned properly. But it never has been, at least not in any way that was even remotely successful. And there's good reason for that - your mana income fluctuates wildly due to the presence or absence of certain raid buffs (Replenishment, BoMight). Since you don't stack intellect, your mana pool will always be small, which makes those effects particularly potent and hard to balance around. Balance around the absence, and their presence gives you the infinite-resource regime; balance around their presence and the class can't function without them.

In Wrath, both Ret and Prot were both cooldown-limited, that's it. Cooldowns were our resource mechanic, and there's only so much you can do with that. Adding another resource to the class - an actual resource - was exactly what we needed. For all the vitriol thrown at Holy Power (and believe me, I'm not blameless on that charge either, I hated it at first too) it's probably the best change the class has gotten since the "all tanks are equal" paradigm of 3.0. It gives us the building blocks of a real resource system that doesn't fluctuate with environmental or encounter-based effects.

I say "building blocks" because while it works, it could have a lot more depth. In a blog post a few months ago, I pointed out that Holy Power basically acts like a variable cooldown on SotR/WoG. But I'm encouraged by GC's statement about Holy Power in the active mitigation model:

Ghostcrawler wrote:(You'd probably also need the ability to save Holy Power more than you can today so that there was less pressure to spend a cooldown as soon as it became available.)


In other words, they might have to make Holy Power a more granular resource to make it interesting. Which, coincidentally, is exactly what I said in the blog post. Turn it into a real resource and we have a winning mechanic.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Call to Arms 5.x, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7655
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Dantriges » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:11 pm

My personal problem with lolpower is that it feels tacked on and is rather meaningless for Prot and well for Holy it doesn´t really feel exciting. The whole system has clunky restrictions that show that it wasn´t completely thought out and the whole Xpac it got more restrictions limiting limited choices instead of expanding the thing into a meaningful resource system. After the threat buff it got even more obsolete for Prot. And it has a rather weak interaction with our second resource, mana.

So HP is not a real resource at the moment and hasn´t been for a whole xpac.
Dantriges
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:39 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Shoju » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:33 pm

Dantriges wrote:My personal problem with lolpower is that it feels tacked on and is rather meaningless for Prot and well for Holy it doesn´t really feel exciting. The whole system has clunky restrictions that show that it wasn´t completely thought out and the whole Xpac it got more restrictions limiting limited choices instead of expanding the thing into a meaningful resource system. After the threat buff it got even more obsolete for Prot. And it has a rather weak interaction with our second resource, mana.

So HP is not a real resource at the moment and hasn´t been for a whole xpac.



This is pretty much how I feel. edited to show what I feel


Shoju stealing dantriges words wrote:My personal problem with lolpower is that it feels tacked on and is rather meaningless for Prot and well for Holy it doesn´t really feel exciting. The whole system has clunky restrictions that show that it wasn´t completely thought out For anyone but Ret and they have put more restrictions in place limiting limited choices instead of expanding it into a meaningful resource system. After the threat buff it got even more obsolete for Prot. And it has a rather weak interaction with our second resource, mana.

So HP is not a real resource at the moment and hasn´t been for a whole xpac.


To me, it REALLY feels like they took combo points from rogues, gutted it to make it "fit" as a secondary resource system and tacked it on to the paladin class with the forehead plate from T8. It's there, staring you right in the face, and not interesting in the slightest.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 6344
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Malthrax » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:21 pm

theckhd wrote:
Ghostcrawler wrote:(You'd probably also need the ability to save Holy Power more than you can today so that there was less pressure to spend a cooldown as soon as it became available.)


In other words, they might have to make Holy Power a more granular resource to make it interesting. Which, coincidentally, is exactly what I said in the blog post. Turn it into a real resource and we have a winning mechanic.


Which is the primary reason why I shelved my Paladin in favor of my Rogue. If I want to play a class with multiple resources to juggle, I'll play one that's had it baked-in since day one.
User avatar
Malthrax
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:23 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Amirya » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:23 pm

theckhd wrote:Going OOM as Ret has never been a serious constraint in raiding, no. It wasn't in Wrath, and it isn't now unless you spam Consecrate and Holy Radiance on cooldown.

Could it be a meaningful resource? Maybe, if tuned properly. But it never has been, at least not in any way that was even remotely successful. And there's good reason for that - your mana income fluctuates wildly due to the presence or absence of certain raid buffs (Replenishment, BoMight). Since you don't stack intellect, your mana pool will always be small, which makes those effects particularly potent and hard to balance around. Balance around the absence, and their presence gives you the infinite-resource regime; balance around their presence and the class can't function without them.

In Wrath, both Ret and Prot were both cooldown-limited, that's it. Cooldowns were our resource mechanic, and there's only so much you can do with that. Adding another resource to the class - an actual resource - was exactly what we needed. For all the vitriol thrown at Holy Power (and believe me, I'm not blameless on that charge either, I hated it at first too) it's probably the best change the class has gotten since the "all tanks are equal" paradigm of 3.0. It gives us the building blocks of a real resource system that doesn't fluctuate with environmental or encounter-based effects.

I say "building blocks" because while it works, it could have a lot more depth. In a blog post a few months ago, I pointed out that Holy Power basically acts like a variable cooldown on SotR/WoG. But I'm encouraged by GC's statement about Holy Power in the active mitigation model:

Ghostcrawler wrote:(You'd probably also need the ability to save Holy Power more than you can today so that there was less pressure to spend a cooldown as soon as it became available.)


In other words, they might have to make Holy Power a more granular resource to make it interesting. Which, coincidentally, is exactly what I said in the blog post. Turn it into a real resource and we have a winning mechanic.

Ahh, thanks for that explanation. I'm worse at Ret than I am Holy, so I never Ret unless I'm bored, or am doing low level dungeons for some reason.
Fetzie wrote:The Defias Brotherhood is back, and this time they are acting as racketeers in Goldshire. Anybody wishing to dance for money must now pay them protection money or be charged triple the normal amount when repairing.
Amirya
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3884
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:59 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby tlitp » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:18 pm

theckhd wrote:I say "building blocks" because while it works, it could have a lot more depth. In a blog post a few months ago, I pointed out that Holy Power basically acts like a variable cooldown on SotR/WoG. But I'm encouraged by GC's statement about Holy Power in the active mitigation model:
Ghostcrawler wrote:(You'd probably also need the ability to save Holy Power more than you can today so that there was less pressure to spend a cooldown as soon as it became available.)

In other words, they might have to make Holy Power a more granular resource to make it interesting. Which, coincidentally, is exactly what I said in the blog post. Turn it into a real resource and we have a winning mechanic.

I suggest reading Fixing Rogues I and Fixing Rogues III. You'll probably be amazed to see the extent of similarities between these two classes. Censure's oncoming buff will only bring Paladins even closer to their Rogue brethren, exacerbating the penalties of target-swapping.

The practice of band-aid fixes does not address the fundamental issues. Who would have thought of that ? :P
User avatar
tlitp
 
Posts: 554
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:25 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby theckhd » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:03 am

Those were very interesting articles, especially since I've been leveling my rogue recently (mostly as Sub, combat feels sort of boring) and mostly see the points he's making. The funny thing is that my impression of rogues is pretty favorable from my limited experience; it feels like the class has a different play style than most of my other characters. The rotation is more static, but it's less spammy than Retribution. Not having another ability queued up immediately took some getting used to, but once I did I realized that it made the rotation feel more strategic. The idea of being able to pool resources and use them intelligently is one that the Holy Power system lacks, and it's something that it probably needs before it will feel like a real resource.

A lot of the complaints about Holy Power being "tacked on" probably occur because it's a new system that people aren't used to, but I can't help but think that the shallowness of the resource is partly to blame. If it felt like a real resource that introduced some strategic decision-making to the rotation, would people find it as unpalatable?

(The counterpoint, of course, is that if it was that involved, we'd see more complaints about how bad it is from tanks who want a dead-simple Wrath-era rotation that takes no thought.)
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Call to Arms 5.x, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7655
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Crimsonheart » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:56 pm

rogues imo are one of those most unique classes. Yes they (for assassination, and i LOVE assassination) very similar to ret now, but target switching truthfully doesnt hurt a rogue as much as it has been stated. I raid firelands and sub is probalby best at swapping, assassination worst...but it isnt all that bad as long as it isnt regular switching (every 10-15seconds). Rhylith for example, usually im always just on the right leg end of story, but i swap on ocasion, swapping is all about intelligent swapping, you envenom AS you swap to get Deadly poison stacked fast and a rupture up, thats assassination. Your loss of damage is slight but not extreme (infact the damage loss is mitigated by the fact that you left a rupture running for extra energy regen), so yes, rogues swapping hurts, but not as bad as it could residual dots still DO tick. I think in a rhyl example ret pallies are better off if you swap legs (cause you can tab back and judge to keep censure up every judge cd).
Crimsonheart
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:10 am

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest