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Dev Watercooler - Threat

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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby benebarba » Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:50 pm

econ21 wrote:I am not sure why threat is not fun. At least in 5 man PUGs, that's much - most - of what I do: keep the threat on me. Hitting the mobs to keep them on me is about as much fun as hitting the mobs to top the dps chart, I'd wager. It's quite active and - at least on my warrior - reactive. It's more fun than looking to make sure you are not standing in the fire or doing whatever silly dance is required for a raid boss fight.


The (hotfix) changes won't stop you from capping hit and exp and going to town in those 5-mans (who doesn't love some AOE trash burnin?). It just makes it so that if you decide to make your healer's life a bit easier, it doesn't make your job noticeably harder or more annoying.

I run with a mixed threat/survival build and gear so perhaps this is why this change is so 'meh' to me. Now, if the next announcement is that all tanks will have to play whack-a-mole to not die, then perhaps I'll have a complaint.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Yurifel » Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:54 pm

Meloree wrote:There is no longer any co-operative element binding DPS and Tanks together in a raid. Post 4.3 with tank active mitigation there will STILL be no co-operative elements between the tanks and DPS.

This does not sound like a fun game. It sounds like the raiding game got significantly worse today.

Even thinking back to the last time threat really mattered in a raid (Brutallus maybe?), this so-called co-operative nature of the threat game was entirely one-sided. As a DPSer, I found the threat game semi-fun and interesting (pre-fight planning of when it was best to use my one threat-dump, then walking the razor's edge all through the fight). From the tank's POV, though, there really wasn't anything complex or interesting about it. They couldn't gear for more threat, those Sunwell bosses required max survivability. They couldn't watch Omen to know when to "make more threat" or anything like that...they simply ran their rotation to the best of their ability and that was the end of it.

If Blizzard decides that they want threat to be a fun mechanic, then I agree it needs to be a legitimately interesting element binding DPS and tanks together. Going back to the TBC model only gets us halfway there, however. Much as Blizzard is planning more on-demand control over a tank's survivability, it would be interesting to see more tools for on-demand burst threat in situations that necessitated it.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Dantriges » Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:57 pm

Oh Wrath threat. Equipping with DPS stuff and getting MDs.
Last edited by Dantriges on Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby thegreatheed » Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:58 pm

benebarba wrote:The (hotfix) changes won't stop you from capping hit and exp and going to town in those 5-mans (who doesn't love some AOE trash burnin?). It just makes it so that if you decide to make your healer's life a bit easier, it doesn't make your job noticeably harder or more annoying.


This isn't true at all. Because we already decide to maximize our gear for survivability, and threat is already a non-issue. This doesn't give you more choice, this actually is giving you less of a reason to choose threat gear (other than gimmicks/if that's even possible).

It makes tanking noticeably easier but less fun.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Flex » Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:59 pm

If threat is already a non-issue how can an increase in threat generation make it noticeably easier?
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby bldavis » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:04 pm

Flex wrote:If threat is already a non-issue how can an increase in threat generation make it noticeably easier?

the only thing i can think of is with the shorter/smoother ramp up time for veng, our 30 sec of oh god pls dont miss will be a 5 sec window instaed
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby thegreatheed » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:07 pm

Flex wrote:If threat is already a non-issue how can an increase in threat generation make it noticeably easier?
Threat is a non-issue if you have half a brain. Sadly, not every subscriber can meet that requirement. There's plenty of bad players who can't handle threat, not because it's broken or anything is hard about it, but because they can't count to 5. Blizzard is now balancing threat around THAT GUY.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Flex » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:08 pm

thegreatheed wrote:
Flex wrote:If threat is already a non-issue how can an increase in threat generation make it noticeably easier?
Threat is a non-issue if you have half a brain. Sadly, not every subscriber can meet that requirement. There's plenty of bad players who can't handle threat, not because it's broken or anything is hard about it, but because they can't count to 5. Blizzard is now balancing threat around THAT GUY.


You underestimate how bad bad players are.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:09 pm

Meloree wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:No, but here's the way I approach large game system changes:

1. Ignore everything about how the game worked previously.
2. Take all the changes described.
3. Backfill anything not covered by said changes.
4. Does this sound like a fun game?


K. We're getting a hotfix that basically removes threat as a component of the game. With a 70% threat buff and Vengeance it will literally be possible to autoattack and hold threat from some of the best DPS in the game. In a future patch, we'll get some active mitigation. I like that part. I'm not sure I love the in-between.

There is no longer any co-operative element binding DPS and Tanks together in a raid. Post 4.3 with tank active mitigation there will STILL be no co-operative elements between the tanks and DPS.

This does not sound like a fun game. It sounds like the raiding game got significantly worse today.

I'm not sure how that phrasing is materially different than what I said earlier, but hopefully it fits with your formatting requests now.


Yurifel wrote:Even thinking back to the last time threat really mattered in a raid (Brutallus maybe?), this so-called co-operative nature of the threat game was entirely one-sided. As a DPSer, I found the threat game semi-fun and interesting (pre-fight planning of when it was best to use my one threat-dump, then walking the razor's edge all through the fight). From the tank's POV, though, there really wasn't anything complex or interesting about it. They couldn't gear for more threat, those Sunwell bosses required max survivability. They couldn't watch Omen to know when to "make more threat" or anything like that...they simply ran their rotation to the best of their ability and that was the end of it.


This pretty much sums up my thoughts. I never felt like there was any cooperation between tanks and DPS around threat. It was always: DPS pulls aggro, yell at DPS, go back to resenting the fact that no one else in my guild feels like tanking.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby thegreatheed » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:17 pm

Flex wrote:
thegreatheed wrote:
Flex wrote:If threat is already a non-issue how can an increase in threat generation make it noticeably easier?
Threat is a non-issue if you have half a brain. Sadly, not every subscriber can meet that requirement. There's plenty of bad players who can't handle threat, not because it's broken or anything is hard about it, but because they can't count to 5. Blizzard is now balancing threat around THAT GUY.


You underestimate how bad bad players are.

Wut

You were the one asking how threat could get easier.

If they really wanted to have more players play tank specs, increase tank dps. Increasing threat doesn't make anything more fun.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:18 pm

Flex wrote:
Meloree wrote:Every threat problem in WotLK came down to "run your rotation better". It was largely outside of the ability of any given DPS to pull agro if the tank executed correctly. The point remains, you needed to actually run your rotation.


But it has never been something geared for, outside of certain encounters. If I hear the phrase "threat matters" to me it implies gearing for it in some manner, not just doing your rotation correctly. I don't think I've had a "threat matters" fight where the threat that mattered was boss threat in all the time I've been tanking.


Hodir. Boss threat mattered.

Threat is something that a lot of people have geared for, when they weren't capable of running their rotation well enough to not gear for it. That's fairly interesting gameplay - you can make a survivability sacrifice to pick up a threat ceiling increase. Maybe good idea, maybe bad idea. Fights like Brutallus and Felmyst and Eredar Twins encouraged the tank to make decisions about survival vs. threat tradeoffs - in spec and gearing - because you couldn't really afford to have your big DPS stop or slow down. I remember having wipes called on Brutallus progression if the first Soul Shatter from a warlock was resisted (I wasn't in charge then, I likely wouldn't have done that). That's a kind of game where every single point of TPS counts, and that's engaging, because it means that good execution and bad execution matters.

Flex wrote:If threat is already a non-issue how can an increase in threat generation make it noticeably easier?


From my perspective, it's less about the mechanical change than it is about the acknowledgement "We've decided that threat should not be part of the game, and are hotfixing it out." The line used to be that threat would begin to matter as the expansion went on, like in ICC (where it only kinda/sorta mattered, but anyway). So, yeah, I miss threat being important.

Yurifel wrote:Even thinking back to the last time threat really mattered in a raid (Brutallus maybe?), this so-called co-operative nature of the threat game was entirely one-sided.


I'm not sure I agree with that. Certainly the DPS was constrained by the tank, instead of the other way around, but that doesn't make the co-operative element one-sided. It meant that there was a constraint for DPS to optimize around on a pull-by-pull basis, it meant that you might adjust groups or raid comp to increase tank threat if necessary (or do it for the first 30 seconds to hold off on the first use of threat-drops for as long as possible). It meant that you might heroism in the tank-group on pull, to build a threat ceiling a little bit higher faster, when it's most critical. There were all sorts of ways for a raid to contribute to improving tank threat beyond "Hey, tank, L2P".

Of course, I was ret on Brutallus for the judgement uptime, and tanked adds on Felmyst and healed Eredar Twins, because we didn't have 10 healers in guild. I did tend to start on Kalecgos because I had excellent threat, and I didn't have threat problems at M'uru or KJ. But I guess I didn't have to deal with any of the real threat-sensitive fights. Maybe I would have been fine without antics, maybe not. I know we did pull tricks for the tanks we used on Brutallus. Whether that was L2P or not, the raid was engaged.

EDIT so as not to double-post:

Sabindeus wrote:This pretty much sums up my thoughts. I never felt like there was any cooperation between tanks and DPS around threat. It was always: DPS pulls aggro, yell at DPS, go back to resenting the fact that no one else in my guild feels like tanking.


Funny. The co-operative elements and team problem solving are what attracts me to raiding. I'm sorry that your experience seems to lack that.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:21 pm

Meloree wrote:From my perspective, it's less about the mechanical change than it is about the acknowledgement "We've decided that threat should not be part of the game, and are hotfixing it out." The line used to be that threat would begin to matter as the expansion went on, like in ICC (where it only kinda/sorta mattered, but anyway). So, yeah, I miss threat being important.


But see this is what I was trying to get at with my previous post. You *miss* threat, sure, but they're pretty much removing it with this change. Imagine threat never existed as a part of WoW. Would such a game be intrinsically bad? That's the question I'm asking.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:22 pm

Meloree wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:This pretty much sums up my thoughts. I never felt like there was any cooperation between tanks and DPS around threat. It was always: DPS pulls aggro, yell at DPS, go back to resenting the fact that no one else in my guild feels like tanking.


Funny. The co-operative elements and team problem solving are what attracts me to raiding. I'm sorry that your experience seems to lack that.


No, those are also the things I liked about raiding, but threat was never one of those co-operative elements, nor was it a problem to solve as a team. The fun part was always "What do we have to do to beat this guy?" The actual strategy and tactical aspects of, what is the boss throwing at us and how do we counter it? The widely available strategy guides and information about bosses on the internet is why I got quickly burned out in T11 as certain guildmates simultaneously got less and less tolerant of anything less than full information before we pulled the boss the first time.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Arianne » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:32 pm

I really don't see why we need to have 6 stats to try and balance (dodge, parry, mastery, hit, expertise, stamina) while DPSers have 3-4 (primary stat [int/str/agi], hit and/or expertise and their strongest 2ndary stat [crit, haste, mastery]) and healers have 3 (int, spirit and their strongest 2ndary stat [crit, haste, mastery]).

How is single target versus AoE going to work? Do we have one skill that gives us multiple charges of our defensive ability for less percentage and one skill that gives us one charge for a higher percentage? Do we need a single target rotation versus an AoE rotation or are they going to simplify it to one rotation so that we have room in thought-space for managing the new defensive abilities?

If Guardian becomes something that takes 1-2 Holy Power to use (ala icebound fortitude) then why am I ever going to use Holy Power when I can keep threat by only hitting CS/HotR on cooldown? Is keeping a bank of Holy Power fun? I don't think it's fun to sit on my resource and have empty GCDs.

If they give us a Divine Counter ability that we use after we block a hit that then gives us a bonus to parry for the next 10s, then that might be fun. But if they give us 3 of those abilities (one for block, one for parry, one for dodge) then it'd just turn into whack-a-mole and we're already running out of ability bar slots for all of our abilities (even with being able to reclaim the HoS spot). They could make Divine Counter do something different depending on what ability you hit it afterwards, but then lag would make a huge difference as well as the fact that combat log ordering is somewhat arbitrary (so even if your client saw a parry last, the game may think you dodged last or got hit last).

They'll have to reassign at least some of the buttons we use in our current rotation. Assuming that they don't want to get rid of the Holy Power construct, then we'll need to keep CS, HotR and AS the same because they are our HP generators. Presumably they'll keep judgement the same because it is likewise a mana generator and applies JotJ.

If we go with having one rotation for AoE and ST and go with having defensive abilities that apply in both single target situations and multiple target situations. Then we have ShoR, WoG, Consecration, Holy Wrath, and Inquisition to play with. Presumably we just may not get Inquisition anymore because there's no reason to have it without a separate AoE vs ST rotation (it could become a Ret spec feature or we just don't use it).

So, they could turn ShoR into the ability that you have to hit with in order to use Holy Shield. Since we don't care about threat anymore, then we can use it with any number of Holy Power (unless it somehow gave a benefit to Holy Shield if we used it with more). If WoG still uses Holy Power to heal though, then we have a choice between increasing our block value and healing ourselves. With a CD still on WoG then we just alternate ShoR and WoG, so I'm not sure that's meaningful gameplay. With no CD on WoG then we have someone theorycraft which one is better per fight and use that one (though some fights with phases will end up with one usage better for a particular phase), but that means that we'll probably have to have a mitigation nerf (which, honestly, probably any increase in active defenses will mean). Having a choice between increased block value and healing or shielding yourself is at least somewhat of an interesting choice.

We could replace Holy Wrath and Consecration with something else since they're both fillers in the rotation anyway. I'm a fan of combo abilities, so maybe if you have Holy Shield up (ie: you're defensive), then you have a category of Valor abilities that you can use. Valorous Prism could increase resistances by X, Valorous Deflect could increase parry by Y, Valorous Bulwark could increase armor by Z. I'm not sure how you'd differentiate between those and regular cooldowns like Divine Protection though and once again we're running into the 'too many keybinds' issue (though you could macro those three into one button with modifiers).

I dunno. At any rate, those changes seem too big for a patch rather than an expansion.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:35 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Meloree wrote:From my perspective, it's less about the mechanical change than it is about the acknowledgement "We've decided that threat should not be part of the game, and are hotfixing it out." The line used to be that threat would begin to matter as the expansion went on, like in ICC (where it only kinda/sorta mattered, but anyway). So, yeah, I miss threat being important.


But see this is what I was trying to get at with my previous post. You *miss* threat, sure, but they're pretty much removing it with this change. Imagine threat never existed as a part of WoW. Would such a game be intrinsically bad? That's the question I'm asking.


The current game is bad as a tank. With threat mattering even less, it's *still* bad. The threat change doesn't fix anything that's wrong with raid tanking - namely that it's boring as all hell right now. I don't know what I'd do if I wasn't a raid leader. Thank science for that meta-game.

If threat never existed, such a game would be intrinsically bad, yes. There are essentially no co-operative elements between tanks and DPS right now. That's bad. As a tank, I have no reason to be engaged in DPS performance, or my own rotation really. DPS have no reason to be engaged in tank performance. By contrast, consider healers. They have good reason to be engaged in both DPS and Tank performance, as well as each others. They're part of the team in all respects. If DPS stands in fire, healer's lives get harder. If tanks wear threat gear, healers lives get harder. If tanks use cooldowns well and proactively, healers lives get easier. If RDPS increases, healers lives get easier, because their allowable MPS increases. That there are no real links between DPS and Tanks is bad. It's bad that for nearly 3 years we've only actually had the pretense of those links, and not the actuality, but it's *still bad* to lose that.

Active Mitigation could well work out very well. I have high hopes - it's something that I very much look forward to, and the sort of thing that I do consider to be engaging gameplay. That is likely to be a good thing. It is yet another tie between healers and tanks (good, can never have too many co-operative elements), it's something for the tank to min/max and get demonstrable results. Even with WoG and HS now there's a noticeable difference between good use and bad use, it's a great thing to have more of that. But it's entirely personal, it still leaves tanks basically uncaring about whatever the hell DPS do - unable to help DPS contribute to raid success, and vice versa.

I want there to be incentive to run my DPS rotation properly. I've wanted that for a long time, I should probably get used to disappointment. Right now, after that change, that incentive is still primarily personal pride. There's no real consequence for failure. That's also bad.
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