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Dev Watercooler - Threat

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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Hrobertgar » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:09 pm

I think part of the reason that tanks do not queue as much for RDF is that the supply of tanks is low, and has probably decreased since Firelands came out.

Someone mentioned earlier that 25m content only requries 2 tanks. So, if that guild decides to do heroics to top off VP, then they are short 4 tanks (2 tanks vs 5 groups, but adding 3 tanks would displace 3 dps so really they would need 4 for all make it into RDF). Back in Naxx25, fights like Patchwerk required 3 tanks, and it was not uncommon for guild to run with 4 tanks, even if one was dps/heals offspec. Just think how big a deal people thought it was to do 25m heroic halfus with 4 tanks, compared to naxx25. So the conversion of 25m content to 2 tanks for most fights has impacted RDF.

Furthermore, now that it is possible for a 25m guild to cap VP based soley on 7 bosses, or 6 + bh. then again the pool of available tanks is lower. Even as a 10m raider, my healer has now downed Raggy, so I can VP cap with Raggy + bh. Other than achieves why would I heal an RDF (chaos orbs for some people I guess, or maybe helping guildees). Even my tank now has 6/7, so I only need 1 troll heroic or two normals to cap VP. Lowering the VP cap probably exascerbated the tank problem.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Fetzie » Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:38 am

The only two reasons I run a random heroic on my paladin are:

I sat out for a boss so that somebody who needs loot can sub in and so I am missing some points
Somebody in the guild asks very nicely if I could tank for them.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby yappo » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:00 am

Still, arguably the majority of tanks (and hence dps and healers) run with an X/7 normal mode 10 man raiding guild, where X is lower than 7.

Two or three trolls is likely to be needed in order to cap VP.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Sagara » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:14 am

yappo wrote:Still, arguably the majority of tanks (and hence dps and healers) run with an X/7 normal mode 10 man raiding guild, where X is lower than 7.

Two or three trolls is likely to be needed in order to cap VP.


Being in precisely this situation, I'll beg to differ.

I tend to need between 300 and 400 VP per week outside of raids, and honestly, I'd rather run 5-7 normal heroics rather than trolls.

The reasoning is that troll heroics is way too stupid-dependent. If 20% of your team fails, there will be horrible pain at one point or another - between bear and dragonhawk is where you generaly brace yourself and prey "hail mary".

Much better to go to a normal heroic and enjoy a longer,relaxed ride. I've also noticed I don't get bags anymore in normal heroics, where trolls do grant bags as tank - I've got a feeling many tanks are rolling in normal heroics for the same reason (may just be a feeling though).
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby yappo » Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:14 am

Sagara wrote:
yappo wrote:Still, arguably the majority of tanks (and hence dps and healers) run with an X/7 normal mode 10 man raiding guild, where X is lower than 7.

Two or three trolls is likely to be needed in order to cap VP.


Being in precisely this situation, I'll beg to differ.

I tend to need between 300 and 400 VP per week outside of raids, and honestly, I'd rather run 5-7 normal heroics rather than trolls.

The reasoning is that troll heroics is way too stupid-dependent. If 20% of your team fails, there will be horrible pain at one point or another - between bear and dragonhawk is where you generaly brace yourself and prey "hail mary".

Much better to go to a normal heroic and enjoy a longer,relaxed ride. I've also noticed I don't get bags anymore in normal heroics, where trolls do grant bags as tank - I've got a feeling many tanks are rolling in normal heroics for the same reason (may just be a feeling though).


Mileage may vary. While I get the occasional awful troll run, ususlly they're pretty painless. Doing an overall 12k+ dps as tank obviously helps.

Anyway, my main point wasn't to discern between trolls and oldies. It was to point out that farming heroics is still very much needed for the average raider in order to cap VP. Stating that heroics have zero bearing on raiders (and should thus never be taken into consideration for balancing implementations) is, in my opinion, to deviate from the truth.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Sagara » Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:26 am

Agreed on that point.

Heroics are still a part of most raider's life.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Malthrax » Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:29 am

yappo wrote: Anyway, my main point wasn't to discern between trolls and oldies. It was to point out that farming heroics is still very much needed for the average raider in order to cap VP. Stating that heroics have zero bearing on raiders (and should thus never be taken into consideration for balancing implementations) is, in my opinion, to deviate from the truth.

Only "needed" if one desires to continue capping VP. Eventually (perhaps even already) those VP won't be needed, as all the "interesting gear choices" (in my case, none of them... bought 2pc for my main, looked at the other pieces and thought, "meh... not really worth it.") will have been purchased, at which point participation drops off sharply.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby yappo » Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:53 am

Malthrax wrote:
yappo wrote: Anyway, my main point wasn't to discern between trolls and oldies. It was to point out that farming heroics is still very much needed for the average raider in order to cap VP. Stating that heroics have zero bearing on raiders (and should thus never be taken into consideration for balancing implementations) is, in my opinion, to deviate from the truth.

Only "needed" if one desires to continue capping VP. Eventually (perhaps even already) those VP won't be needed, as all the "interesting gear choices" (in my case, none of them... bought 2pc for my main, looked at the other pieces and thought, "meh... not really worth it.") will have been purchased, at which point participation drops off sharply.



Fair enough, but the worse your progression is, the higher (sorry about the joke) the need for gear.

Also don't underestimate how much off-spec is shopped for VP (including PvP for casuals in the term off-spec). There are, arguably, 10k VP or so worth of gear for the unlucky raider. This would include PvE upgrades in the back and head slot by means of converting VP to CP.

1) Anecdotal evidence is always bad.
2) I'm a casual tank, but really, a grand total of three raid-drops after 56 boss-kills... RNG can be a *****
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby kaanman36 » Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:30 am

halabar wrote:
benebarba wrote: I hope in 6 months to a year a paladin isn't just a blood DK with yellow effects and a shield.


That does seem to be their design goal... /shudder


This keeps coming up in this thread and it bothers me a lot. Ghostcrawler never said anywhere that DKs were going to me the model for all tanks. He just used the way Death Strike works as an example of an active mitigation ability.

Please stop talking about all taking playing like DKs. I honestly believe Blizz will not do that.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby benebarba » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:08 am

kaanman36 wrote:
halabar wrote:
benebarba wrote: I hope in 6 months to a year a paladin isn't just a blood DK with yellow effects and a shield.


That does seem to be their design goal... /shudder


This keeps coming up in this thread and it bothers me a lot. Ghostcrawler never said anywhere that DKs were going to me the model for all tanks. He just used the way Death Strike works as an example of an active mitigation ability.

Please stop talking about all taking playing like DKs. I honestly believe Blizz will not do that.


Well, when you spend 2 paragraphs specifically talking about changing things to be like one of the major abilities of a DK, along with using their (currently) unique model of survivability and specifically mention using resources like DKs, I think it is reasonable to believe that some mechanical aspects of the DKs are currently being thought of as 'models', though perhaps not exactly. I was indulging in a bit of hyperbole.

If it makes you feel any better, I'd feel the same if warriors or bears had been used as the example. It's the playstyle of the paladin I like, and the flavor.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Flex » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:30 am

The specific mention of Paladins was along the lines of getting Holy Shield back to a Holy Power consuming device.

The issue then becomes Block still has the advantages over DK Mastery by a factor of how it is implemented in game.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Bladesong » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:32 am

Well, when you spend 2 paragraphs specifically talking about changing things to be like one of the major abilities of a DK, along with using their (currently) unique model of survivability and specifically mention using resources like DKs, I think it is reasonable to believe that some mechanical aspects of the DKs are currently being thought of as 'models', though perhaps not exactly. I was indulging in a bit of hyperbole.


Before Cata came out the devs were talking about changing up the healing classes. I specifically recall them saying that they liked they way Shamans worked and wanted other healers to have similar interactions between their spells. The end result wasn't that all healers were a copy/paste of Shamans, but that their talents created interactions between their spells that made spell choices more interactive.

So when they say they like the DK model, I'm not worried that we'll just be DK clones, I take that to mean that they want us to have some meaningful interactiveness with our survival system. The current interaction between mana and holy power is pretty bland, but if they're willing to do a massive overhaul*, it could actually be interesting.

*I am not responsible for any Paladins who had a heart attack when seeing the phrase "massive overhaul"
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:33 am

Bladesong wrote:
Well, when you spend 2 paragraphs specifically talking about changing things to be like one of the major abilities of a DK, along with using their (currently) unique model of survivability and specifically mention using resources like DKs, I think it is reasonable to believe that some mechanical aspects of the DKs are currently being thought of as 'models', though perhaps not exactly. I was indulging in a bit of hyperbole.


Before Cata came out the devs were talking about changing up the healing classes. I specifically recall them saying that they liked they way Shamans worked and wanted other healers to have similar interactions between their spells. The end result wasn't that all healers were a copy/paste of Shamans, but that their talents created interactions between their spells that made spell choices more interactive.

So when they say they like the DK model, I'm not worried that we'll just be DK clones, I take that to mean that they want us to have some meaningful interactiveness with our survival system. The current interaction between mana and holy power is pretty bland, but if they're willing to do a massive overhaul*, it could actually be interesting.

Agreed.
*I am not responsible for any Paladins who had a heart attack when seeing the phrase "massive overhaul"


If you're a Paladin and "massive overhaul" causes heart attacks then you should be loooooong dead.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby kaanman36 » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:37 am

Sabindeus wrote:If you're a Paladin and "massive overhaul" causes heart attacks then you should be loooooong dead.


You beat me to it, I thought the exact same thing.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:40 am

Sabindeus wrote:If you're a Paladin and "massive overhaul" causes heart attacks then you should be loooooong dead.


Maybe this is another reason some of us have quite a bit of longevity with the game: we're basically playing a new goddamn class every expansion.
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