Dev Watercooler - Threat

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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:50 am

Flex wrote:I could have sworn most of the threat concerns in WotLK fell into the "more survival wont help" area.


Every threat problem in WotLK came down to "run your rotation better". It was largely outside of the ability of any given DPS to pull agro if the tank executed correctly. The point remains, you needed to actually run your rotation.

In Cataclysm, you don't, you're largely immaterial to your ability to hold threat or not, and the changes are about to exacerbate that problem.

KysenMurrin wrote:If they remove threat, then they remove a couple of things for dpsers and work on tank gameplay. It's easier for them, and makes the game a little simpler for people to pick up.


It also removes one of the last remaining co-operative elements binding DPS and Tanks together. Raiding is a team game, there should be co-operative elements. Threat ceilings were how the DPS and tanks played together.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Lieris » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:51 am

I do find threat boring and I don't see how they can make it interesting. If they want to make it even more trivial than it is already and make defensive stuff part of upkeep instead then that's fine. It's just worrying that they point to the cluster fuck that is the Death Knight model for managing resources.

That gets us dangerously close to the old model of stacking a single uber stat (like Stamina or defense), which makes gearing choices too simplistic for tanks. Did something drop? Okay, put it on. (Contrast this to a DPS caster who might want more or less hit or might favor haste over crit, etc.)


This is a bizarre double standard, I really can't get my head around it. As a Disc priest I favour haste followed by mastery. I am sure that other classes are similarly simple. Do they really expect tanks to juggle 5 different stats?
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby bldavis » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:52 am

halabar wrote:
benebarba wrote:
halabar wrote: Having the raid die because I'm a millisecond late on an interrupt because I was waiting for a third holypower or because of a half-second of lag is not fun.


Since this can happen even now, I think that is more a fundamental problem than tank gearing. It's the lag-unfriendly mechanics that make that happen...


... and the direction of making the game "more interesting" by giving more buttons to push and things that have to be timed perfectly. And people wonder why average RFD tanks suck so bad. They are trying to compete with "active" games. I think that's a mistake to some degree. Having a lock need to do that to maximize dps is one thing, to require a tank to do it in order to survive is dumb.

i expect it on my lock, my hunter, or even my druids kitty spec
but just to survive as a tank i have to focus on doing everything exactly right?
bullshit...unless we get full tier of Patchwerks
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:15 pm

hmmm... forgive the pedantry but this is what I'm hearing so far:

In This Thread
I don't like resource management!
I don't like when Blizzard changes the focus of my role!
I don't like the concept of gearing for survivability!
I don't like change! Make the game how it was before!
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Shoju » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:19 pm

Sabindeus wrote:hmmm... forgive the pedantry but this is what I'm hearing so far:

In This Thread
I don't like resource management!
I don't like when Blizzard changes the focus of my role!
I don't like the concept of gearing for survivability!
I don't like change! Make the game how it was before!



Hmmm.... You didn't list my gripe on there.

I don't like that blizzard is changing something that doesn't need changing while not fixing that which needs changed.

but... i'm not a paladin.
Last edited by Shoju on Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Mukat » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:20 pm

I, for one, welcome our new threat-free overlords!
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Epimer » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:20 pm

I actually in-real-life facepalmed when I read the part about increasing threat modifiers to x5. What an absolutely terrible idea.

I like it when the ability to generate threat is a defining feature between a good tank and a bad tank. I dislike that threat generation is currently mostly trivialised and I dislike even more that it's basically being removed as a game mechanic in any meaningful sense. I'd have been much happier if Vengeance ramp-up time had been removed but the value tweaked so that there's an actual meaningful difference between the guy doing CS-x-CS-x-CS-ShotR and the guy doing CS-J-HW-afk-CS-afk-afk-afk-CS-afk.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby kaanman36 » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:22 pm

I've really got no problem with this change, and let me explain why. . .

As many others have said, threat already doesn't matter, so how can it not matter more? Either you have hit a mob and have threat on it, or you haven't hit a mob at all and don't have threat on it. The whole system is very binary right now (sure there are those first 2-3 GCDs of a fight where you may lose threat, but only if an ability misses). Them changing the base multiplier from 3x to 5x changes nothing except help low geared and new tanks hold threat against raid geared DPS.

Active defensive abilities? I remember BC. Keep Holy Shield up or be one shot (and subsequently replaced by a warrior). End of story. Adding more active (read button pushed) defensive abilities makes me a happy and more engaged tank. Anybody who can read a guide can put together an adequate gear set that will let them survive a boss fight right now.

Back in the day, you could tell a good tank from bad tank because of their ability to not threatcap (or at least have a higher threatcap than most) the DPS. Going forward, the good tanks will be separated from the bad tanks by their ability to mitigate damage and survive a pull. I got no problem with this.

I took up tanking 6 years ago because seeing big numbers scroll across my screen didn't really interest me. But when the chips are down and the shit hits the fan, I pride myself on being able to eek out those few extra seconds of survival that gets us that boss kill.

Imagine how much better you will feel when those few extra seconds were because of how good of a player you are, and not your ability to follow Mr. Robot's gear suggestions.
Last edited by kaanman36 on Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Mukat » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:24 pm

Epimer wrote:an actual meaningful difference between the guy doing CS-x-CS-x-CS-ShotR and the guy doing CS-J-HW-afk-CS-afk-afk-afk-CS-afk.

Good tank does 12k dps.
Bad tank does 5k dps.
That soul-crushing 1% wipe? It's because one of your tanks is slacking.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:32 pm

Shoju wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:hmmm... forgive the pedantry but this is what I'm hearing so far:

In This Thread
I don't like resource management!
I don't like when Blizzard changes the focus of my role!
I don't like the concept of gearing for survivability!
I don't like change! Make the game how it was before!



Hmmm.... You didn't list my gripe on there.

I don't like that blizzard is changing something that doesn't need changing while not fixing that which needs changed.

but... i'm not a paladin.


Having read and then just now re-read your first post I am pretty sure I covered your complaint.

In essence, wanting threat to matter more instead of not exist is the whole "I don't like change" bit
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby halabar » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:35 pm

4.3 patch notes - to compensate for tanks not needing to concern themselves with threat, and to make the game more enjoyable, we are nerfing tank health by 25%, and giving each tank two new cooldowns to spam.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby halabar » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:37 pm

Sabindeus wrote:hmmm... forgive the pedantry but this is what I'm hearing so far:

In This Thread
I don't like resource management!
I don't like when Blizzard changes the focus of my role!
I don't like the concept of gearing for survivability!
I don't like change! Make the game how it was before!


It's the DIRECTION of the changes...
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby culhag » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:37 pm

Sabindeus wrote:hmmm... forgive the pedantry but this is what I'm hearing so far:

In This Thread
I don't like resource management!
I don't like when Blizzard changes the focus of my role!
I don't like the concept of gearing for survivability!
I don't like change! Make the game how it was before!


So we should just say Amen and enjoy what Blizzard gives us ?
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:45 pm

culhag wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:hmmm... forgive the pedantry but this is what I'm hearing so far:

In This Thread
I don't like resource management!
I don't like when Blizzard changes the focus of my role!
I don't like the concept of gearing for survivability!
I don't like change! Make the game how it was before!


So we should just say Amen and enjoy what Blizzard gives us ?


No, but here's the way I approach large game system changes:

1. Ignore everything about how the game worked previously.
2. Take all the changes described.
3. Backfill anything not covered by said changes.
4. Does this sound like a fun game?

Nothing about "threat" is intrinsically required for WoW to be fun. It should not be treated as a sacred cow. It isn't as if taking it out of WoW leaves a big threat shaped hole that needs to be filled.

So no, if Blizzard is making changes that legitimately generate an un-fun game, then obviously that's bad. I just have seen no reasonable way to conclude that such a sweeping change will be necessarily not fun in and of itself.

Then again feel free to take my comments with a grain of salt since I stopped raiding after T11 due to personal RL time constraints.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby thegreatheed » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:45 pm

Sabindeus wrote:hmmm... forgive the pedantry but this is what I'm hearing so far:

In This Thread
I don't like resource management!
I don't like when Blizzard changes the focus of my role!
I don't like the concept of gearing for survivability!
I don't like change! Make the game how it was before!


I've been complaining since 4.0 came out that vengeance was broken and needed to be fixed, because threat stats are pointless.

I'm still complaining about the same thing.

When threat is pointless, of course it isn't fun. Tanks don't do enough dps for their dps to be "fun". Now with the changes tank dps and tank rotations are even less important, and even less fun.

When Blizzard balances their game around the RDF, it fails.
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