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Dev Watercooler - Threat

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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Levantine » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:39 pm

I thought the reason blizzard didn't want that was to avoid situations like the dragonspine trophy happening again? It's no fun being forced to raid prior tiers of content to get the best gear available to you. Admittedly they failed miserably with the horrible healing trinkets this tier and making the shard of woe so amazing last tier.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Malthrax » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:50 pm

Levantine wrote:I thought the reason blizzard didn't want that was to avoid situations like the dragonspine trophy happening again? It's no fun being forced to raid prior tiers of content to get the best gear available to you. Admittedly they failed miserably with the horrible healing trinkets this tier and making the shard of woe so amazing last tier.


Knowing that they do a full gear-reset every expansion, its not really necessary, nor rational, to grind best-in-slot gear for every slot for every toon in the guild until you're blue in the face. Get "good enough" and go beat new bosses.

(this coming from someone who lost the roll on the DST three times to other rogues who had "RL issues come up" after they got geared up)

Its just not worth obsessing over best-of-the-best-of-the-best. You don't need it to be successful.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Levantine » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:59 pm

Yeah well maximising my character happens to be where a lot of the fun happens to be for me when I'm playing. Do I raid at simply good enough? Absolutely! Will I still feel obliged to steam through old shit to get that one elusive trinket that happens to be best in slot? Also yes. Will I think that part of it is fun? Nope.

I'm sorry, but the attitude you're coming across with strikes me as unconfortably similar to the one that people have when they refuse to gem and enchant their gear properly.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:22 pm

One thing is trinkets and another is actually armor. I mean, I still use the porcelain crab which is 346...
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Darielle » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:26 am

Part of the Wrath ivl jump came basically because they made the decision to work hardmodes into the expansion AFTER the fact based on the popularity that they had. That's not really the sort of thing you can plan for going into the expansion, and in the end while it caused issues, to some extent they got a lot of good things out of it.

I think part of the reason ilvl jumps seem to scale ridiculously huge is how item levels work. 13 ilvls is basically a "standard" jump, and as item levels get higher and higher, the differences become bigger and bigger.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:56 am

Except now they're putting a full tier between normal and heroic, and a tier-and-a-half between gear in one tier and gear in the next. But I think they've decided to just scale it so it doesn't become a problem before the next expansion, rather than try to make it never a problem. Removing a tier from Cataclysm probably means we won't see any extremes.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby yappo » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:53 am

Dantriges wrote:Yeah it is a pretty poor argument but it seems hat most RPG design P&P or online breaks down after a certain point, especially when it gets updated or expanded quite often. Ok most P&P based systems have only a limited staff, it´s really more a hobby barely able to pay the bills for a writer so it seems it´s a budgetary problem for these systems who are necessarily simpler. Many calculations are done by humans at the table and the resolution systems can´t be so complex that you slow down gameplay too much.

But it seems that most MMOs suffer similar problems and unexpected results show up quite often. Ok bigger budget but the player base is bigger and mor competitive. Behaviour that would get you booted from a table like a blatant rules exploit or get fixed by bandaids from DMs are often desirable in MMOs to get an edge.


Aye.

Still, I fully expected Blizzard to extrapolate (as in making an abstract extrapolation at 'home') for Cata and, say, six or seven tierlevels BEFORE going live. After all, it doesn't exactly require rocket science to reality check aproximative numbers for ilevel 467 gear given lvl 85 characters (Cata tier six heroic, or T15 heroic in absolute numbers). That would have given them two 'bonus' tierlevels to play with had they wanted to extend the expansion.

Such an extrapolation ought to have included threat. By this I mean including threat for all generic players doing content that Blizzard wanted them to do. It's reasonable to expect them to know beforehand that players will steamroll easier content for badges (or with the current implementation VP), because this has been the reality since TBC.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby econ21 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:21 am

Klaudandus wrote:Well, it's ok to be excited about getting new gear, but I'd be excited anyways were it to be a 6ilvl jump or 13ilvl jump.


Well the Firelands provided an opportunity to test that, at least for the non-heroic raiders. Personally, I found the 365 dailies gear to be an unexciting upgrade to my 359 stuff. Yes, I would grind out dailies for a month or so for it, but meh. By contrast, was the 378 VP gear exciting? Hell yeah!
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:05 am

econ21 wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Well, it's ok to be excited about getting new gear, but I'd be excited anyways were it to be a 6ilvl jump or 13ilvl jump.


Well the Firelands provided an opportunity to test that, at least for the non-heroic raiders. Personally, I found the 365 dailies gear to be an unexciting upgrade to my 359 stuff. Yes, I would grind out dailies for a month or so for it, but meh. By contrast, was the 378 VP gear exciting? Hell yeah!


That was also because the 378 gear was better itemized. Had the 365 gear had been better itemized, I think they woulda been equally as welcomed.

Like... uh, ring? It has dodge and expertise
And then there's the relic? Dodge and expertise
Necklace? Dodge and Expertise

The only instance where the 365 gear was better itemized than its 378 counterpart is the cloak.
Last edited by Klaudandus on Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:15 am

Darielle wrote:Part of the Wrath ivl jump came basically because they made the decision to work hardmodes into the expansion AFTER the fact based on the popularity that they had. That's not really the sort of thing you can plan for going into the expansion, and in the end while it caused issues, to some extent they got a lot of good things out of it.

I think part of the reason ilvl jumps seem to scale ridiculously huge is how item levels work. 13 ilvls is basically a "standard" jump, and as item levels get higher and higher, the differences become bigger and bigger.


Well, yeah, that's my point... the more stats you put in, the bigger the difference in how tanks scale and how dps scale when it comes to dps/threat.

I mean, that's the whole reason why they're even scrapping threat, because they couldnt figure out how to deal with threat-capping. Had they used a threat modifier that scales baked into the same ability that allows us to generate threat, it woulda been a better solution than taking a sledge hammer to it.

For example: Righteous Fury: All your abilities generate 300% threat based on your damage plus 0.5% per 10 points of mastery.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby theckhd » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:20 am

I don't really understand this ilvl discussion. The premise seems to be "huge ilvl jumps make it impossible to balance threat between tanks and DPS across several tiers," which is demonstrably false. That's the whole point of Vengeance. It's pretty trivial to plug in some numbers, figure out how DPS will scale for both tanks and DPS, and tweak the Vengeance conversion factor appropriately. They have more than enough parameters to play with to make it an over-defined problem.

Why didn't they get it right then? That has more to do with the implementation of Vengeance than anything about scaling. I think they probably had it about right for raiding when they were still at a 200% modifier and a tank had full Vengeance. But that failed to take into account situations where you didn't have Vengeance (LFD), or the 30-second ramp up period. To be able to hold threat in those situations, they needed to bump the threat modifier up, which then made steady-state threat ridiculous.

Again, had Vengeance just been an always-on STA->AP conversion with no ramp-up time, it would have worked fine. And we know that, because we didn't have these inane ramp-up problems in BC or Wrath. The only thing that was missing was the scaling part, which a flat STA->AP conversion fixes perfectly well.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:23 am

Disregard that I suck.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby yappo » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:45 am

Klaudandus wrote:Ok, dismissing my argument of ilvls aside, could my idea of baking an extra thread modifier that increases as we gain a certain stat (mastery) be a better fix than the sledgehammer approach they took instead?

Although my ilvls point argument was that dps scale better from the gear upgrades than a tank when it comes to generating threat/damage


While it wouldn't have made it worse, the fundamental problem lies in us (threat) scaling reversly with several of our tanking stats. We do, however, PAY for those stats along a similar curve as more dps-oriented stats. This will inevitably lead to dps (and healers) getting an abolute benefit from increased ilevels.

Sure, one specific dps-stat is maybe less worth than another, but even if you have almost no use for, lets take haste, more haste is still always better than less haste given that the more advantegous dps-stats were unavailable for you.

As for threat, dodge, parry, armour and mastery all LOWER our threat in absolute terms. Even strength includes a minor threat decrease as more strength adds more parry. Stamina only potentially increases our threat (Vengeance has to ramp up to the number which was the 'ceiling' given 'worse' gear before it presents a threat bonus). That leaves us with hit, expertise and 'damage per second' hard coded into weapons as the only sources of absolute threat gains (ok, the BiS cloak has agility which adds minor threat without any absolute drawbacks).

As soon as you introduce reverse scaling of benefits for one role only, it becomes virtually impossible to have all roles scaling along the same curve no matter what content they do. This meaning that you could possibly have them scale along the same curve for 'current' raid content only. This by band aiding encounter mechanics to be balanced among roles within the frames of ten ilevels of gear or so.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Darielle » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:47 am

I mean, that's the whole reason why they're even scrapping threat, because they couldnt figure out how to deal with threat-capping. Had they used a threat modifier that scales baked into the same ability that allows us to generate threat, it woulda been a better solution than taking a sledge hammer to it.


That's not really true but you said to disregard that so I won't make a big deal out of it >.>
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:49 am

Yeah, sorry, wasn't thinking properly.

Well, at least we're back on topic, so at least there's that.
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