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Dev Watercooler - Threat

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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Raeli » Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:52 am

As in your threat modifier increases by 2.5% for every 1 Mastery you have? so at 10 Mastery you would have 325% Threat Modifier?
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Fetzie » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:04 am

That sounds rather good actually.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:12 am

Yeah, I guess mastery would work better than str.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:14 am

I doubt it'd happen, as scaling your threat modifier has no easily visible impact for the player.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:17 am

But its better than bumping it from 300 to 500 just to keep undergeared tanks competitive in LFG, and not threat-capping your dps in a raid environment.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby yappo » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:08 pm

Bladesong wrote:
When you look at a concept, you also have to look at what it'll result in, given extremes. The tanking extreme would be passive 102.4 avoidance (and I mean 102.4 combined miss, parry and dodge). That's the holy grail of tanking. In that extreme scenario a tank wouldn't be theoretically capable of holding threat, because tank dps would be identical to tank dps against a target dummy (unavoidable damage being the only source of difference).


Blizzard has a good idea of how many tiers of gear there will be, miss rate is a fixed number and dodge and party have diminishing returns, so the theoretical holy grail will not come to pass. On a raid level, the "scale threat from avoidance" works just as well as vengeance, but it runs into problems with 5 mans where new tanks might be putting together a set of tank gear and using some dps/pvp pieces to fill it out. The benefit of scaling off of total health is that higher level gear *always* has more stamina - it's a guaranteed increase in threat. Even CTC tanks are not claiming to have any threat issues, so Vengeance would appear to be scaling appropriately.

1) As your gear becomes better you'll reduce/avoid more damage. Tank dps would increase as a result of better aggregated 'tanky' stats. PvP gear is almost lacking in the avoidance departement, so resilience would be the only issue. Tank PvP-dps would scale, sure, but at least tank PvP-dps would NOT scale with how competent the opponent is at inflicting damage on the tank, which it does today. Even worse, with the current implementation, in full stamina PvE gear, given a very competent healer, I could burst down an opponent from here to kingdom come as a result of taking craploads of damage, which would be just about exactly the opposite of what Blizzard wanted to achieve.


PvP actually encompasses some pretty varied game-play. Usually when someone talks about PvP balance, they mean Arena. I'd break the remaining PvP into Rated BG's (small group, extremely goal oriented), small battles (normal WSG, EotS, Gilneas, Twin Peaks) and big battles (TB, AV, Isle, Strand, Wintergrasp). I've flag carried in Rated BG's (as bot prot pally and prot warrior) and I strongly disagree that a competent healer can keep a PvE geared tank up. First, any good group will burn down healers before going for the flag carrier. Second, the flag carrier gets attacked from all sides and spends a LOT of time bouncing in and out of stuns/fears/roots, which negates most opportunities to attack. Third, if what you said was true, then people would be doing it with awesome results. I don't think it matters too much what your class/spec is, if you are the target you get very little opportunity to dps/heal.

I'd also point out that Blizzard could have very easily chosen to shut off vengeance in PvP. They chose to leave it in, which seems to indicate that they intended for tanks to get some benefit from it.


You're missing my point. When you design a concept you look at how it will work under extreme conditions. If you notice that you'll run into absurd problems at the extreme end-point, then that's a pretty clear indication that you'll run into gradually worsening problems on the way there.

Notably Blizzard does NOT have a good idea of how many tier levels there will be. They've already missed that goal by 33 or 25%, depending from which direction you count, in this xpac. No water raid.
During WotLK Blizzard 'found out' that hardmode fights with better gear 'happened' to make tank avodance scale more than they wanted. Keywords 'they wanted'. What kind of half-arsed argument is that? Blizzard programs the game, things should scale ECAXTLY the way they want them to. But, no, they didn't. We got 20% LK radiance instead.

You're also looking at the threat scaling from a point of view where tanks never leave the sweet spot. Vengeance only works properly when you tank content matching your gear. That is a retarded implementation.

As for PvP. When you jog around with a flag the damage you do is kind of less important than staying alive. I'm quite honestly not very interested in how Vengeance works in that scenario. If people are stupid enough to hack away at me when I have a healer handy, their problem. I'll start generating very decent dps with the current implementation of Vengeance.
Worse is that I have slaughtered opponents while wearing PvE gear in arena (gearing in PvE a glaring mistake from my side). Proper PvP gear is obviously superior for keeping me alive, but soaking 40%+ magic damage lowers the rate at which Vengeance ramps up.
You are, however, absolutely correct I'd have lasted about as long as a snowball in hell in a BG.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Dantriges » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:32 pm

Don´t most RPG systems with a certain comlexity break down if you go for the extremes? Be it D&D, WoD any P&P RPG or any MMO.

Yeah this , the introduction of heroic content messed up their calculations and unless they add a tier after Deathwing, even this basic premise disappeared in Cata.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby yappo » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:15 pm

Dantriges wrote:Don´t most RPG systems with a certain comlexity break down if you go for the extremes? Be it D&D, WoD any P&P RPG or any MMO.


Most do, and players (and especially game masters) notice the brokeness long before extremes are reached. Not all though. Pure % based systems with DR on progression (you need to match a decreasing percentage every time you try to progress) also tend to include a critical failure range. That one is absolute, so even in the unlikely event you have 100% skill you still fail on, for example, 01.

However, 'they screwed up before us, so it doesn't matter if we screw up as well' is a pretty poor argument.

Obviously you're bound to screw up eventually when you implement a complex enough system, but making a reality check which tells if an implementation is heading for hell or seems plausably functioning even at extreme levels is the least that can be demanded from a designer.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:24 pm

I still blame the huge ilvl jumps >=/
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Dantriges » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:42 pm

Yeah it is a pretty poor argument but it seems hat most RPG design P&P or online breaks down after a certain point, especially when it gets updated or expanded quite often. Ok most P&P based systems have only a limited staff, it´s really more a hobby barely able to pay the bills for a writer so it seems it´s a budgetary problem for these systems who are necessarily simpler. Many calculations are done by humans at the table and the resolution systems can´t be so complex that you slow down gameplay too much.

But it seems that most MMOs suffer similar problems and unexpected results show up quite often. Ok bigger budget but the player base is bigger and mor competitive. Behaviour that would get you booted from a table like a blatant rules exploit or get fixed by bandaids from DMs are often desirable in MMOs to get an edge.

You could make a case that current numbers are bigger than the original design parameters ever intended. And I ´ve never seen a game system where you just could add bigger stats without it spiraling out of control. I think we had such a situation in Wrath wit the addition of heroic content and new itemlevels. The system was planned for a certain level and when this new idea was implemented to correct another problem, the whole system went belly up.

I though t it wouldn´t happen in Cataclysm and I was surprised when I saw that were big gaps in DPS numbers and they had to adjust mana and what else.

Would be interesting if the blog actually talked about stuff like that.

Yeah ilevel jumps are really big but wasn´t the reasoning that lower numbers were too small to get players actually excited about their new gear?
Something that I don´t understand are the big jumps when leveling. Was it really necessary to go to level 346.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Malthrax » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:23 pm

Dantriges wrote:Yeah ilevel jumps are really big but wasn´t the reasoning that lower numbers were too small to get players actually excited about their new gear?


I dunno, I think thats rather a week argument on their part for iLvl bloat.

Personally, and solely IMO, the WoW community could do without the faction of players who are solely interested in "oh! shiney!" for their barbie-doll.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:31 pm

That still goes to my other post at how the dps classes benefit on a curve from the big ilvl jumps whereas tanks benefit on a linear level due to lacking those modifiers.

Heck, I've been complaining about ilvls jumping too big just from within T11.

Although, truth be told, reducing the ilvl jump between tiers would not have solved the issue, but would have allowed for the problem not to be so noticeable even at first glance.

And even if my idea is not applicable anymore as they used a sledgehammer to fix threat (or get rid of it), at least my idea made for actual scaling to keep threat (if not dps) competitive for equally geared dps.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Dantriges » Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:28 pm

Malthrax wrote:
Dantriges wrote:Yeah ilevel jumps are really big but wasn´t the reasoning that lower numbers were too small to get players actually excited about their new gear?


I dunno, I think thats rather a week argument on their part for iLvl bloat.

Personally, and solely IMO, the WoW community could do without the faction of players who are solely interested in "oh! shiney!" for their barbie-doll.


I dimly recall people saying when I started with T4 content that raid loot isn´t worth it in the beginning. They still raided but yeah they felt that one aspect of the game was lacking. I still remember people being outraged when the first token loot appeared, the "welfare epics".
Well, many people deny it but seems to me that most get excited when something drops that is useful to them. Well the higher availability of gear and several total gear resets have probably dimmed the excitement quite a bit.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:53 pm

Well, it's ok to be excited about getting new gear, but I'd be excited anyways were it to be a 6ilvl jump or 13ilvl jump.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Malthrax » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:03 pm

Dantriges wrote:I dimly recall people saying when I started with T4 content that raid loot isn´t worth it in the beginning. They still raided but yeah they felt that one aspect of the game was lacking. I still remember people being outraged when the first token loot appeared, the "welfare epics".
Well, many people deny it but seems to me that most get excited when something drops that is useful to them. Well the higher availability of gear and several total gear resets have probably dimmed the excitement quite a bit.


You can get excited about something can be new and useful without it being galatically overpoweredly uber-better than what you're currently equipping. And yeah, knowing that with every expac (hell, with every content release) everything you have is rendered nigh-useless is rather disheartening. I can understand a gear reset every once in a while, but practically every content patch is a bit overboard, IMO.

Smaller iLvl jumps between content releases would go a long way toward not completely invalidating the prior content, too.
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