Remove Advertisements

Dev Watercooler - Threat

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Arianne » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:13 pm

I want the 5 minutes of my life back that I just spent reading the thread from when it derailed on page 22 or so. :P

I don't see how they're going to do active mitigation without adding at least 3-5 additional abilities to what we currently have in addition to modifying some of them (ie: ShoR causes you to be able to use Holy Shield). I'm not even sure what they're going to do for active mitigation. Increase parry or dodge chance? Increase block chance? Generate an absorb shield (ala Sacred Shield in WotLK)? Increase armor? Increase resistances? Increase HP?

Most of those we already have tools that do the same thing. Some of them would infringe on healer territory (can you imagine the Disc priest screams if all tanks got absorbs that didn't stack with DA/PW:S?). I'm not sure they have design space here...
Arianne
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:22 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby theckhd » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:15 pm

thegreatheed wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:theck is repeating things I already posted :|

Sorry, I started the post before I left work, but didn't get to finish it until just now.

In any event, it bears repeating. The argument here has centered around the assumption that SoI healing can somehow impact your healer's cast selections. I don't think that's true at all, and I don't think any healer would support that notion either.


And sadly that wasn't even my initial point (which i've pointed out multiple times).


Right, but it's central to your conclusion. You keep saying that you find the 2k DPS tradeoff to be worth it. But the only survivability bonus you've presented is that it somehow makes you easier to heal in a way that your healers notice.

In essence, your entire argument rests on the assumption that your healer makes different choices when you use SoI. But there's no mathematical support for that notion, nor has any of the anecdotal evidence in this thread validated that assumption. The fact that SoI procs are smaller in magnitude than the hit/crit variations of a single HoT should be enough to convince you that what you're looking at is noise-level fluctuations, which means they're not significant enough to put any distinct value on.

In short, when it comes to statistics, anything less than the noise floor is zero. SoI is less than the noise floor, and thus has basically zero value. You're stating otherwise, but not providing any proof of it. The best you have is "my healers notice," which is really, really hard to believe given the circumstances. Either you have the most sensitive and awesome healers in the world, or you're over-estimating the effect you're describing.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Levantine » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:19 pm

I can honestly say that I can't tell the difference between a tank using insight and a tank using truth. :/ Like, at all other than their substantially lower dps. I can also say I've never come into a situation where a tank using truth died where running insight would have saved their life, I have however had wipes where an extra couple thousand dps would have secured a kill.

As a healer, keeping a tank alive is something I have a say in, and honestly, the healing from insight goes completely unnoticed. Raid dps on the other hand I have very little control over, and honestly, killing bosses faster is always going to be more useful in my eyes.
User avatar
Levantine
 
Posts: 10818
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: NQ, Aus

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby thegreatheed » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:45 pm

theckhd wrote:
thegreatheed wrote:
And sadly that wasn't even my initial point (which i've pointed out multiple times).


Right, but it's central to your conclusion. You keep saying that you find the 2k DPS tradeoff to be worth it. But the only survivability bonus you've presented is that it somehow makes you easier to heal in a way that your healers notice.


No, that wasn't central to my conclusion, it was a tiny corollary.

My comment was on the nature of their fix to "the threat game". To fix the threat game, they just massively buffed threat. My comment was that I'd rather they fix "the threat game" by buffing tank dps to much more meaningful levels. Instead of a tank doing 50% of a dps with a 500% modifier, I'd rather they make a tank do 90% of a dps with a 50% modifier. This would make tank dps more meaningful, it would make tank rotations more meaningful, it would make tank keypresses more meaningful. To me, going from 50 to 90% of a real dps is a meaningful tank dps change.

By comparison, 2k dps from SoI to SoT isn't NEARLY as meaningful. It wasn't anything near to my main point, it was (in my mind) a small tradeof, and I was using it to demonstrate a small tradeof that I don't consider meaningful. (I'm not the only one in this thread that says they switch to SoI for increased survivability).
Image
thegreatheed
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:02 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Torias » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:51 pm

So, you need an 80% increase in DPS to consider it "meaningful" but totally negligible healing that'll just get lost to background noise from HoT's is worth while? I am confuse.
Torias
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:50 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Worldie » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:54 pm

I would just let you notice that we already run over 70% of a DPS.
Proper tanks (and I'm afraid your guild lacks of those if you say those words) can easily run over 18k DPS on Heroic boss fights. Even our tanks are up to 19k occasionally, and we are nowhere near to a top 100 guild.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13365
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Fetzie » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:56 pm

thegreatheed wrote:By comparison, 2k dps from SoI to SoT isn't NEARLY as meaningful. It wasn't anything near to my main point, it was (in my mind) a small tradeof, and I was using it to demonstrate a small tradeof that I don't consider meaningful. (I'm not the only one in this thread that says they switch to SoI for increased survivability).


search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=switch+to+SoI&t=32019&sf=msgonly&ch=-1

I did a quick search of the thread for the phrase "switch to SoI". While about 5 posters mention switching to SoI, they all add that the dps tradeoff is not worth it. However, maybe the search is not completely working, can you link the posts that support your hypothesis (those belonging to other posters of course :D )? I cannot find them.
Fetzie | Protection Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2193
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Dantriges » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:02 pm

I remember the post of one of my guild mates, with the dps date from different specs. Think it was from WoL Top 100. there ere differenes of 10k+ DPS between different specs. Ok WoL statistics probably have ther problems and the data is a bit cntaminated by the fact that good DPS who play DPS only classes play the spec that gives them the most bang screwing the data in favor of the specs who are already the strongest ones, still there was a big difference between possible outputs.

This Tank DPS debate is meaningless if Blizzard is unable to make DPS specs fit into a tight band. They can´t put us close to DPS. 90% of the big FotM DPS spec could be the same output as your Shadow Priest or retribution paladin.

If your raid is able to, changing DPS roster composition has a bigger impact. And as one of our officers who tank said. As long as the differences between our top DPS and lowest DPS is so big (say hi to reality in a middle of the road guild), increasing tank DPS output has no priority.
Dantriges
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:39 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Torias » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:11 pm

Logically speaking that makes no sense. More DPS is more DPS, it's something entirely linear. There's no compromise to having more DPS, or inflection points or anything of the sort.

If the rift between your highest and lowest DPS is so large as to render tank DPS meaningless, and the DPS benefit of SoT keeps being pegged at 2k, how would you react to your top DPS suddenly increasing by 2k next raid? Your raid total DPS is your raid total DPS, regardless of source. Just because improving your worst DPS to be on par with your best has a greater effect on your raid total DPS doesn't mean a 2k increase has no priority.

That's especially true given the fact that SoT really sacrifices nothing of value, it's not like dropping 10% block or something to get Hit/Exp capped.
Torias
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:50 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Fetzie » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:15 pm

If you could increase your 5 dps's damage by 400 dps each for little to no cost, would you do it? That is, in effect, what you do when you increase the raid's dps by 2000 (and SoT is worth more than 2000 dps)
Fetzie | Protection Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2193
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Sidheinn » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:30 pm

---I--- have never had a case where the raid played perfectly, and my 2k lower dps lost the fight since cata, because those are the only fight in context.. (and to those of you bringing up old TBC encounters... wut... tanking was entirely different then) That is the only quantifiable instace where you can prove that 2k tank dps is worth any amount of survivability loss.

edit

5 people left in the raid and wiping at 700k is not quantifiable proof that tank dps matters. That healer failure or dps not moving out of stuff, tanks dps COULD have been a success here, but it isn't verifiable.
I have never had a case where the raid (let alone one person or me) played perfectly.

Why does the raid have to perform perfectly before killing the boss because of the contribution of what seal I used or whatever matters? If one mage is all that's left alive, he is 3 seconds from certain death, and the boss dies, why does that make my 2-3k dps (aka 15-20 second shorter boss fight) from SoT invalid? A dead boss is a dead boss. Even if on the next fight we would have had a clean kill, morale is lower from another wipe and that's one less attempt we get to do on a new boss this week. My dps mattered.

Have you ever had a case where the raid played perfectly, and a dps was taking entirely unavoidable damage that would have killed him, and a healer saw you were using SoI, and your health was 15k higher than if you were using SoT(because every star in the galaxy aligned when it was most helpful to you), so he chose to heal the dps instead of you, and you would have wiped if he had chosen to heal you? If the people on the side of SoT have to adhere to perfection for it to matter, so do you and SoI.



On Topic: 500% is way over the top. I always thought 300% seemed ridiculous when compared to what we had in BC and LK. Since getting HS, WoG, DP, and 2 on use trinkets, I realize that I enjoy having lots of buttons to press to help keep me alive. Bring on some active mitigation. :D
Sidheinn
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:50 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Bladesong » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:23 pm

28 pages? Damn, I don't think I've ever been on time to a good party :x

Getting back to the topic at hand, I saw two things that didn't quite add up for me:

When you look at a concept, you also have to look at what it'll result in, given extremes. The tanking extreme would be passive 102.4 avoidance (and I mean 102.4 combined miss, parry and dodge). That's the holy grail of tanking. In that extreme scenario a tank wouldn't be theoretically capable of holding threat, because tank dps would be identical to tank dps against a target dummy (unavoidable damage being the only source of difference).


Blizzard has a good idea of how many tiers of gear there will be, miss rate is a fixed number and dodge and party have diminishing returns, so the theoretical holy grail will not come to pass. On a raid level, the "scale threat from avoidance" works just as well as vengeance, but it runs into problems with 5 mans where new tanks might be putting together a set of tank gear and using some dps/pvp pieces to fill it out. The benefit of scaling off of total health is that higher level gear *always* has more stamina - it's a guaranteed increase in threat. Even CTC tanks are not claiming to have any threat issues, so Vengeance would appear to be scaling appropriately.

quote]1) As your gear becomes better you'll reduce/avoid more damage. Tank dps would increase as a result of better aggregated 'tanky' stats. PvP gear is almost lacking in the avoidance departement, so resilience would be the only issue. Tank PvP-dps would scale, sure, but at least tank PvP-dps would NOT scale with how competent the opponent is at inflicting damage on the tank, which it does today. Even worse, with the current implementation, in full stamina PvE gear, given a very competent healer, I could burst down an opponent from here to kingdom come as a result of taking craploads of damage, which would be just about exactly the opposite of what Blizzard wanted to achieve.[/quote]

PvP actually encompasses some pretty varied game-play. Usually when someone talks about PvP balance, they mean Arena. I'd break the remaining PvP into Rated BG's (small group, extremely goal oriented), small battles (normal WSG, EotS, Gilneas, Twin Peaks) and big battles (TB, AV, Isle, Strand, Wintergrasp). I've flag carried in Rated BG's (as bot prot pally and prot warrior) and I strongly disagree that a competent healer can keep a PvE geared tank up. First, any good group will burn down healers before going for the flag carrier. Second, the flag carrier gets attacked from all sides and spends a LOT of time bouncing in and out of stuns/fears/roots, which negates most opportunities to attack. Third, if what you said was true, then people would be doing it with awesome results. I don't think it matters too much what your class/spec is, if you are the target you get very little opportunity to dps/heal.

I'd also point out that Blizzard could have very easily chosen to shut off vengeance in PvP. They chose to leave it in, which seems to indicate that they intended for tanks to get some benefit from it.
User avatar
Bladesong
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:58 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Ocin » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:45 pm

Arianne wrote:I don't see how they're going to do active mitigation without adding at least 3-5 additional abilities to what we currently have in addition to modifying some of them (ie: ShoR causes you to be able to use Holy Shield). I'm not even sure what they're going to do for active mitigation. Increase parry or dodge chance? Increase block chance? Generate an absorb shield (ala Sacred Shield in WotLK)? Increase armor? Increase resistances? Increase HP?

Most of those we already have tools that do the same thing. Some of them would infringe on healer territory (can you imagine the Disc priest screams if all tanks got absorbs that didn't stack with DA/PW:S?). I'm not sure they have design space here...


I don't think they'll add more abilities, but as someone else posted, they'll have to make existing abilities more interdependent of each other. I'd hope that paladin tanks see the least amount of changes given our recently revamped Holy Shield. We seem to have the parts laying around, but let's hope Blizz isn't too heavy-handed.

Becoming a hybrid tank/disc priest doesn't seem compelling without an increased DPS component. It should be interesting to see how this plays out.
Ocin
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:55 am
Location: NJ/NYC

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby thegreatheed » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:17 pm

Worldie wrote:I would just let you notice that we already run over 70% of a DPS.
Proper tanks (and I'm afraid your guild lacks of those if you say those words) can easily run over 18k DPS on Heroic boss fights. Even our tanks are up to 19k occasionally, and we are nowhere near to a top 100 guild.


So, another page of rehash and can we drop the sub argument that I've tried to move past 3 times now??

You say over 70% of a DPS... your dps isn't breaking 25k?? That's pretty bad. Since 18-19k on a tank has to be a near optimal dps situation, I'd certainly expect your dps to be putting out way more than 25k in an optimal situation. I mean the top parses on baleroc are breaking 40k. 19k/40k... hmm, sounds like 50% to me. Looking at those top parses, tanks were doing between 13k, 15k (paladins) to 15-19k (warriors dks). That's not 70%. In fact, that's only 40% for paladins.

Can we get on topic now?
Image
thegreatheed
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:02 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:05 am

I was thinking something...

Could this have been avoided had the ilvls not jumped so bad right off the bat?

We started heroics with 346 ilvl gear, we then went to 359 on T11 raids, intersect 353 gear on Zuls, then 372 gear for T11 heroics, 378 ilvl gear on normal t12 and god knows what T12 heroics gear is.... 391?

Now consider this. Most dps classes have damage modifiers in their talent trees, but protection trees do not. So a gain of 20 str (or more) when you upgrade a piece of gear is way more beneficial to a dps person than to a tank as their modifiers will make that stat increase even more effective. Protection trees dont seem to have those modifiers, so our growth is more linear...

Now back in 346/359, things were more balance.... jump 19 ilvls and you can see where I'm going.

Maybe they should have the 300% threat as a baseline and then increase threat by an extra % based on modifiers on some talents that directly grow from the stat increase

I dunno if I'm being clear... just woke up and had this pillow epiphany...
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11099
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest
?php } else { ?