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Tank Comparisons...again

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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby fafhrd » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:54 am

Astronomic wrote:-@Worldie Bears bring tranquility which is super cool on fights like beth's burn phase and 5% crit passive buff and savage roar which is helpful in very limited situations


AND Faerie Fire and Mangle, as well as 5% stats from Gift. For our 10 man comp (which has all debuffs and buffs covered) replacing our bear with a DK would completely wreck buff/debuff coverage - the latter would bring literally no useful buff or debuff to the table.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Kraziness » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:59 am

While I am certainly not tanking heroic Firelands runs, I did happen to be tanking Rag the other night on my DK, and the other tank was a Paladin. He would start out tanking and we were swapping at 4 stacks normally (except for when he would zone out and let me run up 5-7 stacks). At the end of the night I was looking over recount, the paladin was getting wrecked and he wasn't even doing any self healing. He was consistently taking about 30 - 50 percent more incomming damage than my DK. I usually have no problems keeping up dieseases and I'm also my guild FL raid leader. Perhaps those that are having problems aren't balancing thier avoidance stats and mastery well enough imho. I try to sit around a mastery rating that gives me 100% of the damage done via Death Strike as a Blood Shield. I reforged to expertise cap (reforging any hit rating first). Once I get to my mastery and exp goals I reforge as much parry as I can into dodge. With self buffs only I sit at about 16% dodge and over 20% parry. Could it be that some of these DK tanks are relying too much on parry and getting diminishing returns? Also I have no problem using cooldowns, there are just so many tactics to use for a DK. AMS, IBF, Ghoul sacrifice, ERW+deathstrike spam(20k heal on avg + 20k blood shield), Dancing Runeweapon, Army of the Dead, Blood Tap(glyphed to heal the raid for 5% of thier health), dodge trinket if you have one (which most tanks do), grounded plasma shield (yea engineering). All these and people are having issues?Thoughts?
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Worldie » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:35 am

I would be betting that paladin is spamming stamina disregarding mastery / avoidance.

You shouldnt really be using Grounded Plasma Shield if you are serious about tanking.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Shoju » Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:02 am

Astronomic wrote:Ok I think your blowing Dk's complexity out of preportion. I have a Bear a Blood and a Prot War and the DK is BY FAR the easiest to play (with warrior being the hardest). It is not hard at all to manage deathsrike. As to no encoutners where a DK is preferable, I meen its not make or break but Baleroc screams DK encounter with decimation balde (Dancing Rune Weapon) and inferno blade (AMS), not to mention you can heal yourself for soooooo much with a properly timed DS after being hit by decimation blade. So I havent played a pally tank since 3.0 but if DK is that much of a step up from a pally then pally is just dirt easy to play.


This is hyperbole right? DKs are easier than bears? You're kidding right? I don't know if I would even say a DK is easier than a warrior to play, but I would NEVER say that it is easier than a bear.

Are you timing your Death strike to ensure you are healing for more than base? Are you making sure that your RE is going to give you what you need? Are you mindful of your runes and cooldowns?

You do realize that there is a Debuff on Dblade that caps the healing that you can get from it right? We aren't going to be healing ourselves back to full off of a single DS on that fight. I believe that the debuff from Decimation Blade cuts healing by 90% afterwards for a period of time that gets it out of the DS heal box. So No, you can't heal yourself for.............. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much. There it is no big heals

Judging by this first paragraph, I'm curious what raid tanking you have done on a DK, as there is hyperbole, over generalizations, and incorrect information.

The only thing I wish DKs had was an AoE taunt and/or some kind of AoE runic power blower.


I would sell my army of the dead for an AoE taunt. I don't need an AOE RP dump unless it is going to be good, not overpowered, and not a clone of Howling Blast. AoE taunt would be pro though.

-Side note, bears dont do too bad with AoE mastery because it procs 50% of the time off crits and if you're swipe/thrashing a bunch of mobs then ur mastery is procing alot. Its really only limited by your swipe(3s) and thrash(6s) cooldowns; not as good as block but definately not as bad as DK AoE mastery


The DK mastery when put up against AoE is awful. Why?
1.) The shield is eaten, and easten fast.
2.) Our AoE threat move, just like our Debuffs conflict with our mitigation.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:37 am

The concept of a class being worthless at questing makes my brain hurt


Straight Holy Pally is almost worthless at questing. Even in my Exodin spec, taking on mobs at Cata release took noticeably longer on my Holy Pally then either the Mage or the Tank. Now that Blizz has eliminated the instant proc Exorcism cast (almost certainly for PvP) my already modest dps output against other than undead/demon targets is prolly 10% less. Taking on mobs as raid spec holy, without a cheap Exorcism cast and needing to rely on melee and Holy Shock alone, can be rather painfull.

While questing, I use my Exodin queting/PvP spec and run Seal of threat/censure. Even spamming Exorcism it takes noticeably longer against any non-undead/non-demon target than my other toons. If I forget to change specs and engage a quest mob in my raid spec without cheap Exorcism, I fix my mistake IMMEDIATELY after the first mob, its just too painfull otherwise. If you don't believe me, get a Holy Pally friend in raid spec, and both of you start the Firelands dailys at the same time: its crushing the difference although Holy Radiance and other heals gives the pally an unreal advantage in the one healing quest :) If I do the FL dailys on the mage, tank and healer in the same day, the difference is very noticeable and I'm comparing to Exodin spec, not raid-Holy.

I mean other than cheap Exorcism (Exodin spec only, not raid spec), what does a Holy Pally have?

Judgement - meh nice range usually, but underpowered although it can proc censure at range
Holy Shock - nice but 6sec CD and must be used for heals sometimes

Consecration - mana sink enough said
Holy Wrath - mana sink enough said
Crusader Strike - meh not enough Attack power to make it worth a GCD while I still have to heal myself
Exorcism - mana sink without talent leaves pally vulnerable to the few mobs that kick casts even if talented (the old instant proc removed in 4.2 alleviated this)

The Tank is actually amazing if I am regularly pulling more than 3 trash mobs while questing. Hammer is just sick that way, and with Consecration and Holy Wrath on top its unreal. In FL dailys, I just aggro a large pack of trash at the bottom of the hill and spam Hammer until dead, using tank CDs as needed, then LoH if I get into trouble, and turn it all in. As Holy I usually try to snipe ones that are half dead thru NPC combat.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Astronomic » Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:57 am

Ill give you that bears have a more natural feeling AoE rotation but single target? You must be joking.

I will admit I am only extrapolating information on Baleroc as my DK isn't geared enough to attempt it yet. But it clearly says it heals you for 20% of the damage recieved over the last 5 seconds. If your at 750k hp get hit then ur at 75k hp.. that meens the following deathstrike should heal you for 135k. If DB cuts healing by 90% for DS heal box (5 seconds) and the swing timer on DB is 4 seconds then it would be an impossible encounter. Im not saying it heals you to full but there have been many attempts on my bear where the healers got me somewhere between 75%-89% hp but it wasnt enough and I died.

If you find watching runes difficult then DK isnt the class for you. Its honestly not hard. In fact runes practically "tell" you what your next move is for you! Wish rage did that. And If you don't have patience to hold off deathstrike if something wicked this way comes, then just go unholy and SS your deathrunes away.

As for the AoE comment, you literally answered your own question in 1) 2) Edit: Just realized that question was rhetorical.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:28 pm

I believe the Baleroc heal debuff only applies to self heals.

When I heal it, I usually take care oft he very first Decimation hit with a LoH, and then just spam heals pro-actively and try to prepare a 3Ho-Po WoG. However, when I'm on my tank my own LoH only heals me to half.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Shoju » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:28 pm

Astronomic wrote:Ill give you that bears have a more natural feeling AoE rotation but single target? You must be joking.


Right.... you can't be serious. Lets just talk skills for a second.

For single target on a bear, I need
Feral Faerie Fire
Mangle.
Maul.
Lacerate.
Pulverize
Demo Roar
Barkskin
Survival Instincts
Berserk
Frenzied Regeneration.
Thrash(? I'm not 100% sure on its usage on single targets)

For single target on a DK I need

outbreak
icy touch
plague strike
heart strike
death strike
rune strike
rune tap
blood tap
Bone Shield
vampiric Blood
Icebound Fortitude
Anti-Magic Shield
Raise Dead
Death Pact
Lichborne
Death Coil

10-11 skills used on a fight VS 15-16 skills used on every single fight. Then there is Rage VS Runes + RP, my 2 debuffs to watch to reapply vs one, and the list goes on and on and on. I'm sorry, you will NEVER convince me that a bear is harder than a DK tank.

I will admit I am only extrapolating information on Baleroc as my DK isn't geared enough to attempt it yet. But it clearly says it heals you for 20% of the damage recieved over the last 5 seconds. If your at 750k hp get hit then ur at 75k hp.. that meens the following deathstrike should heal you for 135k. If DB cuts healing by 90% for DS heal box (5 seconds) and the swing timer on DB is 4 seconds then it would be an impossible encounter. Im not saying it heals you to full but there have been many attempts on my bear where the healers got me somewhere between 75%-89% hp but it wasnt enough and I died.


HRobert beat me to it. Read the tooltip I linked. Self Heals.

So Assume you are at 750k HP when Decimation Blade hits. You get hit for 675k. So, Death strike heals me for 20% of the 675k hit. or 135k damage. This 135k Damage is then taxed by a 90% healing penalty, meaning that the 135k heal is now a 13.5k heal with a (at least for me) 20.25K Blood Shield attached to it. That is the way the math works out. Death Strike is not OP on Baleroc. I'm sorry.

If you find watching runes difficult then DK isnt the class for you. Its honestly not hard. In fact runes practically "tell" you what your next move is for you! Wish rage did that. And If you don't have patience to hold off deathstrike if something wicked this way comes, then just go unholy and SS your deathrunes away.

Really? The runes whisper me and tell me when I need to DS, or RS and let the boss hit me again? They tell me when I need to refresh my diseases early and when I can wait all by themselves? I must have missed that option in the interface. I must have missed the part where the runes tell me how to play and when to do what, and takes all the decision making of the process out for me.

I didn't say it was hard. I said it was harder than a bear.


For A death knight, I have 6 runes, for of which I need to track whether or not they are are F/U or D runes. I need to keep my B runes on perma CD. I need to make sure I have open runes for my CD's that take runes, the GCD's to use the CD's that aren't off the GCD, I need to keep RP pooled when I'm nearing lichborne use. You are crazy if you think that Druids are harder to single target than Death knights. Do you need an Addon to be able to use your mastery correctly? Because to use Death Strike and Blood Shield optimally You will have a blood shield tracking addon.

The runes are not a horse, and I'm not Robert Redford. They can't whisper you the answers. There is still a large amount of thought that a DK tank puts into it. If you aren't putting that much thought into it, you aren't playing a DK optimally. There is a reason that the official forums are inundated with Blood DK's asking Blizzard to fix them.

I agree with the general sentiment there are a lot of things wrong with DK tanking, but it sure as hell beats Holy Power IMO.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Gerunna » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:49 pm

If you were on the ball enough, I could see getting a good DS in after a taunt off the Decimation Blade phase. You'd have a one second window to do it, but it should possible. Of course at that point it wouldn't be all that necessary to get a big spike of heals.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Shoju » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:55 pm

Precisely. At that point the DS is pure overheal, though I guess it could be nice working it on the last blade? Be hard to get the healers to let it go through though.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Astronomic » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:21 pm

There are several moves left out of both lists but all in all I just think bears have a more complex "core rotation" while Dks have more defensive CD management and moves that might be pressed one a minute like icy/plague/outbreak/bone shield. Amount of moves =/= complexity of class. I just feel like I can press one button at a time on a DK because I can see when those runes are becoming available while on a Bear I am constanly mashing buttons like a rogue so the instant I have enough rage to do something I can do it, while having to hold off sometimes if I see mangle comming up but might not have enough rage for move "x" + mangle. Also manging rage with mauls, knowing when its safe to maul, or when you might be rage starving yourself. And since its off GCD you will be mashing maul while mashing other things. I think bears can feel more hectic while DKs can feel more controlled. The only real chance of uncertainty in the DK "core" rotation Runic Empowerment. So basically im saying my keyboard and fingers like DKs better

-Also I have quite a few of those DK moves that are off GCD macrod together (Raise Dead + death pact, Lichborne + Death Coil) while I cant do that with maul because I don't want to accidently rage starve myself.

-Yes you use thrash when you have 3 lacerates and nothing else to hit, rage allowing :P

-Yes you have runic power as a resource but we have lacerate stacks as well which in its own way is a resource, much like combo points.

- Also gearing a DK is alot more straight forward than bear imo. Since for bears mastery/hit/expertise/crit are all defensive stats as well with different weights. I could see you agruing DS windows with hit/exp but u'd need to miss 3x in a row to miss your window.

- I hope you don't think I ment runes literally speak to you. Its a literary device called personification. They say runes are like tetris because you see a shape and you hafta make it fit in the right hole (so to speak!). There is usually only 1 way to go to maximize your rotation. If you put the shape in the wrong spot you screwed yourself. Yes I'll agree that the Dk rotation is unforgiving if you hit the wrong thing, but its not hard to stay on track. I would analogize this in the following manner: DK's rotation to me is like a straight road with sheer cliffs on both sides. Bears are like a very curvy road but on a flat plane.

-Maybe I'm just kinda underwhelmed after playing all specs of lock back when DoTs clipped and feral kitty.

-Now we just need a pally vs warrior fest.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby mavfin » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:03 pm

I won't touch the pally vs warrior thing with a ten-foot pole, especially on here. :D

However, to me, a bear is just a modified/simplified warrior. SSDD. I would also say that DK is more complex than bear. DK's not really any harder than a warrior, imo. It's difficult for me to judge how 'hard' a warrior is after 6+ years, too; I've tanked on it since 2005. I've done all 3 of the other tank classes, and if I had to say least complex to most complex, this is how it would go. This is only my opinion, and not a judgment of how 'good or bad' the class is.

Least complex to most complex:

Paladin
Bear
DK - warrior tie, but, as I said, I've played a warrior the most by far, so I'm not a good judge of its complexity compared to DK.

Doesn't mean that I don't find paladin fun. I do. :P

I think the two class/specs I find the least fun right now are arcane mage (too boring) and combat rogue (I have a thug type toon that beats the hell out of things already, it's called a fury warrior!)
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby bldavis » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:48 pm

i am not a huge pally player anymore, but based on the experience i do have with pallies, i would agree
bear is a very easy tank to play, and that is why i enjoy playing one as i RL

and really DK feels REALLY squishy
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby masterpoobaa » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:52 pm

Reading about DK's and druids makes me appreciate even more where pallies are right now.

Spam CS/HotR every second GCD, prioritise procced AS's, keep judgement up, WoG when required, have fun playing around with our PLETHORA of defensive cooldowns as required.

Only thing I miss is that AS no longer spreads Seal of Truth stacks around.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:44 am

masterpoobaa wrote:
Only thing I miss is that AS no longer spreads Seal of Truth stacks around.

Are you sure about this? I could swear it still does...
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