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Tank Comparisons...again

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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Amirya » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:14 pm

Compared to some of the gems I've seen?

Yes. You are like Hawking level genius compared to them.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Dantriges » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:36 pm

I´ve read the post on WoWhead, my Dk is sitting in hibernation right now, like most of my twinks.

The whole DK stuf posted sounds a bit complicated.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Sagara » Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:02 pm

Complicated indeed, but there's a nice little chapter smack dab in the middle that sums up the reactions that are expected depending on your rune outlook.

It's a very good read, and I'm already planning a training session with my own DK tank - Thanks Gerunna!
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby fafhrd » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:07 am

Where do bears fit into all of this? We've been using a bear for everything so far (13/13 T11, 4/7H T12) and are pretty happy. Very high threat, lots of gear options, easily switches between stam avoidance and dps stats from fight to fight. Seems to have cooldowns for stuff. I'm not sure how he is to heal, but haven't really heard complaints. Doesn't have a raidwide cooldown to use though, although he BRs now and then, and I imagine he can tranq some fights.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:17 am

Bears are probably behind warriors by a bit. But bears, warriors, and DKs are all playing in the same league, at least. Paladins right now are completely out of line. The worst tank imbalance since the 3.1 era DK. No, I'm not exaggerating or kidding. Remember TBC? Every other tank is crushable, and has no compensation for it. Right now paladins are a) the only uncrushable tank, b) somehow get to have two sub-30s survival cooldowns on top of the "default loadout" that everyone gets, c) have Bubble and LoH and BoP and BoSac and DG for helping to outcomp fights (warriors have to give up a survival cooldown to use their raid cooldown), d) can out-gimmick the gimmick fights better than anyone else with an uncapped cheat death ability and that whole blockable elemental damage travesty.

With normal-mode Firelands gear, and 2 heroic pieces, I'm at about 208k raidbuffed hp while block capped. The "cost" in stamina is around 1200 right now. When there was a major stamina sacrifice to make in order to block cap, there was a semblance of balance. Better for some bosses, worse for others. Now that the cost of block capping is significantly cheaper, and getting cheaper still with every upgrade, it's a no brainer. We're the hardest tank to burst down, and we have an amazing array of short cooldown anti-burst options. Oh, and hey - if mana still mattered (it doesn't) we're cheap to heal, too - entirely because the burst risk is lower.

Yup. Fair and balanced.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby mavfin » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:35 am

Meloree wrote:Bears are probably behind warriors by a bit. But bears, warriors, and DKs are all playing in the same league, at least. Paladins right now are completely out of line. The worst tank imbalance since the 3.1 era DK. No, I'm not exaggerating or kidding. Remember TBC? Every other tank is crushable, and has no compensation for it. Right now paladins are a) the only uncrushable tank, b) somehow get to have two sub-30s survival cooldowns on top of the "default loadout" that everyone gets, c) have Bubble and LoH and BoP and BoSac and DG for helping to outcomp fights (warriors have to give up a survival cooldown to use their raid cooldown), d) can out-gimmick the gimmick fights better than anyone else with an uncapped cheat death ability and that whole blockable elemental damage travesty.

With normal-mode Firelands gear, and 2 heroic pieces, I'm at about 208k raidbuffed hp while block capped. The "cost" in stamina is around 1200 right now. When there was a major stamina sacrifice to make in order to block cap, there was a semblance of balance. Better for some bosses, worse for others. Now that the cost of block capping is significantly cheaper, and getting cheaper still with every upgrade, it's a no brainer. We're the hardest tank to burst down, and we have an amazing array of short cooldown anti-burst options. Oh, and hey - if mana still mattered (it doesn't) we're cheap to heal, too - entirely because the burst risk is lower.

Yup. Fair and balanced.


So, basically, you're saying that as usual, Paladin is the OP tank. Nothing new there, I guess. :( I mean, they spent most of Wrath being the most faceroll heroic tank, and the OP tank because of AD. Welcome to SSDD.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:47 am

mavfin wrote:So, basically, you're saying that as usual, Paladin is the OP tank. Nothing new there, I guess. :( I mean, they spent most of Wrath being the most faceroll heroic tank, and the OP tank because of AD. Welcome to SSDD.


I'm saying that currently the protection paladin is OP, in my opinion. That's all. Don't put words in my mouth, I don't have an agenda, obviously you do.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby mavfin » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:56 am

Meloree wrote:
mavfin wrote:So, basically, you're saying that as usual, Paladin is the OP tank. Nothing new there, I guess. :( I mean, they spent most of Wrath being the most faceroll heroic tank, and the OP tank because of AD. Welcome to SSDD.


I'm saying that currently the protection paladin is OP, in my opinion. That's all. Don't put words in my mouth, I don't have an agenda, obviously you do.


I don't have an agenda, but, the above points to why I'm always skeptical anytime changes are made and the 'sky is falling' posts come out. 2nd expansion in a row, pallies are the OP tank again, after much 'they ruined us' unhappiness in the beginning. I'm not saying it's a conspiracy or anything. They just haven't figured out where to take the design yet, imo. When they figure out how to make pallies not scale wrong as to become OP in the 2nd tier, then, we'll see how much screaming we hear.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:05 am

mavfin wrote:
Meloree wrote:
mavfin wrote:So, basically, you're saying that as usual, Paladin is the OP tank. Nothing new there, I guess. :( I mean, they spent most of Wrath being the most faceroll heroic tank, and the OP tank because of AD. Welcome to SSDD.


I'm saying that currently the protection paladin is OP, in my opinion. That's all. Don't put words in my mouth, I don't have an agenda, obviously you do.


I don't have an agenda, but, the above points to why I'm always skeptical anytime changes are made and the 'sky is falling' posts come out. 2nd expansion in a row, pallies are the OP tank again, after much 'they ruined us' unhappiness in the beginning. I'm not saying it's a conspiracy or anything. They just haven't figured out where to take the design yet, imo. When they figure out how to make pallies not scale wrong as to become OP in the 2nd tier, then, we'll see how much screaming we hear.


2nd expansion in a row? I'd love to hear you justify that. Please explain how paladins were overpowered for 3.0, 3.1, 3.3, 4.0/4.1. 3.2 I'll grant you. Specific examples of paladin mechanics breaking encounters would be helpful. Clearly it makes more sense to say that paladins are overpowered on X.2 patches.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby fafhrd » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:09 am

BTW do all the people with sigs hosted at zetbit.com realize they don't show up properly (or is that just me?). I always get you lot mixed up since there's a handful of you.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:12 am

fafhrd wrote:BTW do all the people with sigs hosted at zetbit.com realize they don't show up properly (or is that just me?). I always get you lot mixed up since there's a handful of you.


I keep not remembering to fix it. Taken care of.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby mavfin » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:27 am

Meloree wrote:
mavfin wrote:I don't have an agenda, but, the above points to why I'm always skeptical anytime changes are made and the 'sky is falling' posts come out. 2nd expansion in a row, pallies are the OP tank again, after much 'they ruined us' unhappiness in the beginning. I'm not saying it's a conspiracy or anything. They just haven't figured out where to take the design yet, imo. When they figure out how to make pallies not scale wrong as to become OP in the 2nd tier, then, we'll see how much screaming we hear.


2nd expansion in a row? I'd love to hear you justify that. Please explain how paladins were overpowered for 3.0, 3.1, 3.3, 4.0/4.1. 3.2 I'll grant you. Specific examples of paladin mechanics breaking encounters would be helpful. Clearly it makes more sense to say that paladins are overpowered on X.2 patches.


Fair enough. I was being general, and wasn't meaning 'for the whole expansion'. However, they were pretty much '*the* tank' from 3.2 on in Wrath. In 3.3 the other tanks caught up some, but AD prevented them from ever quite catching up completely, and, of course, ICC was full of undead.

I've said more than I intended, so I'll leave it alone now. I'm not saying it's a conspiracy, or that it's intentional. It's just annoying as hell that they still haven't figured out what to do with pallies after what we dealt with in Wrath from 3.2 on. I personally can bring my warrior to tank whenever I want with my guild, because they know me, but I've got a couple friends who are already being told that they're not wanted for PuGs. Again, not something intentional, but still irritating.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Dantriges » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:28 am

My prediction for 4.3

Paladins will sink their Points in Stamina (probably limited because you can only gem/Enchant for it and gemming benefits get smaller in comparison to item stats) or more avoidance paying huge amounts of itempoints for diminishing returns.

Warrior come close to block cap

DKs will get a buff wth the usual amount of overbuffing that happens every time, Blizzard fiddles with an underpowered spec.

Bears will get a slight buff perhaps and land solidly on place 2 in the usual tank shuffle.

Blizzard will close the remaining possible exploits for AD in the next tier, like DS. There aren´t really many things remaining in boss encounters where DS helps. At least not so many compared to BC.

There will nothing happen to BoP, BoS and whatever else could be problematic, at least not because a paladin tank has it. There are two other specs running around with that.

Blizzard will finally realize that raidwall was a bad idea to keep from last expansion but will do nothing because they can´t leave it as discipline only. Or if they do, they give shamans another totem or change Spirit Link.

Mavfin will rage on that paladin tanks are OP since uh when did he start?

Blizzard will rage on about aoe tanking and nerf consecrate in the next xpac.

So yeah, yawn.
Last edited by Dantriges on Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Dantriges » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:36 am

mavfin wrote: and, of course, ICC was full of undead.


Oh please. I buy AD overpoweredness but paladins overpowered because here were undead in ICC...

I personally can bring my warrior to tank whenever I want with my guild, because they know me, but I've got a couple friends who are already being told that they're not wanted for PuGs. Again, not something intentional, but still irritating.


The average PuG stupidity knows no limits. The community is always bowing to the lowest common denominator. So yeah perhaps /probably there is a tank imbalance that needs to be fixed but at the moment you only experience it in heroic content.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:49 am

mavfin wrote:Fair enough. I was being general, and wasn't meaning 'for the whole expansion'. However, they were pretty much '*the* tank' from 3.2 on in Wrath. In 3.3 the other tanks caught up some, but AD prevented them from ever quite catching up completely, and, of course, ICC was full of undead.


The undead thing has always been a myth, it meant nothing. There was no change to threat or survivability against undead in 3.3. Exactly zero. Bears had paladins solidly beat for all of 3.3 - at least for the only relevant encounter. AD was certainly very stupid, though.

mavfin wrote:I've said more than I intended, so I'll leave it alone now. I'm not saying it's a conspiracy, or that it's intentional. It's just annoying as hell that they still haven't figured out what to do with pallies after what we dealt with in Wrath from 3.2 on. I personally can bring my warrior to tank whenever I want with my guild, because they know me, but I've got a couple friends who are already being told that they're not wanted for PuGs. Again, not something intentional, but still irritating.


There is no conceivable reason for warriors to not be desired for pug raids or heroics. I blame PuG stupidity for that one. There is no tank imbalance in normal modes or heroic 5-mans.

Dantriges wrote:Blizzard will close the remaining possible exploits for AD in the next tier, like DS. There aren´t really many things remaining in boss encounters where DS helps. At least not so many compared to BC.


DS is exploitable on every tauntable boss for ~5 seconds of melee immunity. Making bosses tauntable made it more exploitable than ever.
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