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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:12 am

Passionario wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:But Zombies aren't people, so genocide wouldn't apply.


Forsaken aren't Zombies, so it would.

And even the mindless Scourge minions used to be people at one point, and with luck and skill, may be reawakened to sentience once again. So killing them for sport is akin to committing mass euthanasia; not necessarily a crime, but a morally controversial act regardless.


But they're still not people!
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Passionario » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:32 am

Sabindeus wrote:But they're still not people!


Most neutral NPCs treat Forsaken characters as people.

Are you a better judge of character than A'dal and Tirion Fordring?
Are you better at telling people from non-living things than Alexstrasza and Avatar of Freya?

And no, simple conviction that "blondes/gnomes/women/mages/Forsaken/Canadians/<insert any other group here> aren't people, they are just people-shaped objects made of meat that make funny noises and can mimic the appearance of pain really well" doesn't count as objective proof. :D
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:02 am

Passionario wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:But they're still not people!


Most neutral NPCs treat Forsaken characters as people.

Are you a better judge of character than A'dal and Tirion Fordring?
Are you better at telling people from non-living things than Alexstrasza and Avatar of Freya?


Yes.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Darielle » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:38 am

Most neutral NPCs treat Forsaken characters as people.

Are you a better judge of character than A'dal and Tirion Fordring?
Are you better at telling people from non-living things than Alexstrasza and Avatar of Freya?


That treads dangerous territory regarding game implement vs. lore.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:49 am

Passionario wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:But Zombies aren't people, so genocide wouldn't apply.


Forsaken are people, so it would.

(Some would argue that even the mindless Scourge minions used to be people at one point, and with luck and skill, may be reawakened to sentience once again. So killing them for sport is akin to committing mass euthanasia; not necessarily a crime, but a morally controversial act regardless)

Forsaken are at best humanoid, they are certainly not people. I can split hairs with you on this semi ridiculous tract all day. It's the cost of attempting to apply real world ethics to a fantasy world.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Passionario » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:59 am

Fridmarr wrote:Forsaken are at best humanoid, they are certainly not people. I can split hairs with you on this semi ridiculous tract all day. It's the cost of attempting to apply real world ethics to a fantasy world.


Real world ethics are a thorny issue, so it may, in fact, be preferable to discuss them via allegories of fantasy worlds.

Anyway, please enlighten me. In what ways are Forsaken 'not people'?
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:01 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Passionario wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:But Zombies aren't people, so genocide wouldn't apply.


Forsaken aren't Zombies, so it would.

And even the mindless Scourge minions used to be people at one point, and with luck and skill, may be reawakened to sentience once again. So killing them for sport is akin to committing mass euthanasia; not necessarily a crime, but a morally controversial act regardless.


But they're still not people!


Passionario wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Forsaken are at best humanoid, they are certainly not people. I can split hairs with you on this semi ridiculous tract all day. It's the cost of attempting to apply real world ethics to a fantasy world.


Anyway, please enlighten me. In what ways are Forsaken 'not people'?


They are... dead people. The ideal is to help help return to death. The fact that they actively recruit with plague-spreaders doesn't give them much of a leg to stand on (it's likely half-rotten anyway). They don't breath, they eat carrion to survive, and their bodies are rotting.

They were people, now they are corrupted reanimated corpses who have had some vestige of their former sentience returned to them.

The larger question is do they have any real memory of the past, or is it distorted and perverted by the plague and Sylvanas.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby bldavis » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:15 am

if you are claiming Forsaken are a people, what do you call Naga?
Naga are just Highborne that got transformed.

and wat about worgen? sure they are human...but they are also more then human

honestly i feel forsaken are a people, but they are not human anymore
they may have been at one point, just like Arthas, but they are undead now
the only difference between teh forsaken and the scourge is the forsaken serve Sylvanis and know they are doing it, where as the scourge mindlessly serve the LK (currently bolvar)
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Flex » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:19 am

Passionario wrote:Anyway, please enlighten me. In what ways are Forsaken 'not people'?


Created through supernatural means.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Digren » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:24 am

Passionario wrote:
Brekkie wrote:Moral relativism is an intrinsically short-sighted, illogical position.


Oh, I'm all in favor of universal moral absolutes.

It's just that one of said absolutes happens to be "genocide is a bad, BAD thing". Yes, even if the subjects of said genocide are already undead.

I don't see many people rising up to protest the genocide of smallpox. I think there would be even fewer people complaining about it if, after death, smallpox victims rose up and tried to spread the virus through cranial contact.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby fafhrd » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:30 am

Gnomes aren't people, wtf.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Zalaria » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:32 am

Flex wrote:
Passionario wrote:Anyway, please enlighten me. In what ways are Forsaken 'not people'?


Created through supernatural means.


Ever heard of the Curse of Flesh? "Supernatural Means" applies to every flesh-based race on Azeroth.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:35 am

Passionario wrote:Anyway, please enlighten me. In what ways are Forsaken 'not people'?


Their reproduction involves applying necromancy to the corpses of a completely separate race, whom they then, despite any ties to their former living selves, coerce into joining their nefarious causes by giving them the illusion of choice when in reality they have none.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Gerunna » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:00 pm

Zalaria wrote:
Flex wrote:
Passionario wrote:Anyway, please enlighten me. In what ways are Forsaken 'not people'?


Created through supernatural means.


Ever heard of the Curse of Flesh? "Supernatural Means" applies to every flesh-based race on Azeroth.


If you aren't an orc, you aren't people :P
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby sahiel » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:39 pm

Sabindeus wrote:But they're still not people!

You keep using that word, I do not think it means, what you think it means.

peo·ple
noun (plural) /ˈpēpəl/ 
people, plural; peoples, plural
    The citizens of a country, esp. when considered in relation to those who govern them
    Those without special rank or position in society; the populace
    The men, women, and children of a particular nation, community, or ethnic group

All definitions the Forsaken meet.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:47 pm

Gerunna wrote:If you aren't an orc, you aren't people :P


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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Kelaan » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:12 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Passionario wrote:In what ways are Forsaken 'not people'?

Their reproduction involves applying necromancy to the corpses of a completely separate race, whom they then, despite any ties to their former living selves, coerce into joining their nefarious causes by giving them the illusion of choice when in reality they have none.


That's like saying that peasants in Stalinist Russia weren't people, because they have no choice about their loyalties. I don't see that as making them Not People, just that they have dodgy recruitment practices. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Forsaken choose to join up, as it's better than being dead again -- in contrast to the Scourge, who are at animated/enslaved against their will. (As illustrated very well by the Road to Damnation story.)

As for them being created via necromancy, what about Warforged, or Earthen? They're sentient beings, and we treat them as such. (Warforged are not in the wow universe, but basically they are a "race" of golem-robot things in Eberron.) We do quests for elementals, who are sentient as well.

Basically, I consider (and think most characters in wow would also) sentient beings who acknowledge an ethical compass to be "people", rather than the more narrow definition of "flesh-based humanoids who reproduce biologically". Clones are people, alt-universe dopplegangers are people, etc. After all, the Curse of Flesh turned the mecha-whatnots into fleshy things, so "people" (at least on Azeroth) were sentient before they were fleshy-things.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:22 pm

Kelaan wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but Forsaken choose to join up, as it's better than being dead again


Play the Undead starting zone and tell me how much choice was involved there. People get reanimated against their will and are basically threatened into serving the Forsaken or else. The one man who tried to take a stand against this was re-killed. I don't see this as a real choice.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Amirya » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:26 pm

Zalaria wrote:"Supernatural Means" applies to every flesh-based race on Azeroth.

Not 100% sure of vrykul origins, but based on some of the starting quests in Howling Fjord, I'd venture that humans weren't created through supernatural means, they were an evolutionary mutation of the vrykul.

Since worgen are curse infected humans, they too, originally were an evolutionary mutation of the vrykul.

And how, precisely, did draenei evolve? Theirs, also, could be evolution vs supernatural
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:30 pm

man now I feel bad for derailing this thread so hard
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Amirya » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:30 pm

As well you should, sir. :lol:
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby fafhrd » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:34 pm

It did become a pretty boring thread the last 5 pages or so. You're luck no mods have seen it and done their duty about it yet.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:43 pm

fafhrd wrote:It did become a pretty boring thread the last 5 pages or so. You're luck no mods have seen it and done their duty about it yet.


siiiiiigh. this is all your fault you evil racist gnome hater.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby bldavis » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:57 pm

Amirya wrote:
Zalaria wrote:"Supernatural Means" applies to every flesh-based race on Azeroth.

Not 100% sure of vrykul origins, but based on some of the starting quests in Howling Fjord, I'd venture that humans weren't created through supernatural means, they were an evolutionary mutation of the vrykul.

Since worgen are curse infected humans, they too, originally were an evolutionary mutation of the vrykul.

And how, precisely, did draenei evolve? Theirs, also, could be evolution vs supernatural

really the only supernatural races are dwarves and gnomes....and troggs....my bad
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Kelaan » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:07 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Kelaan wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but Forsaken choose to join up, as it's better than being dead again


Play the Undead starting zone and tell me how much choice was involved there. People get reanimated against their will and are basically threatened into serving the Forsaken or else. The one man who tried to take a stand against this was re-killed. I don't see this as a real choice.


Imagine being born in Feudal Japan, or as a serf in medieval history. Your choice is serve the master/lord, or die. This is the same choice that the Forsaken have. It's different than the choice that Ner'Zhul (and later Arthas) gave the Scourge, which was "serve me willingly, or I will force you to serve me unwillingly". Forsaken at least have the option of real death again - though of course hardly anyone would choose that. We consider serfs and peasants (and slaves) to be "people", I extend the same to the Forsaken. :)

edit: Of course, I also find their actions completely reprehensible, and in many ways villainous. The individual Forsaken are probably mostly OK, ethically, but the Faction itself's goals definitely are something that makes my character want to oppose them at every opportunity.
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