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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:33 am
by Sabindeus
Garrosh is definitely a badass regardless of any of the other characters. That having been said, Annhylde was definitely cool. I do love the Vrykul in general. I approved of that particular development.

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:49 am
by Dantriges
Well losing Lordaeron Central to the Alliance is certainly a setback. OK he can´t know the future, but the outcome of sacrificing the Forsaken army, who is more or less the one in most direct contact with the enemy is pretty obvious. And well it´s not like the Horde is politically stable. If he sacrifices one ally to save his troops, what will the rest think? The trolls are more or less in open defiance, he killed Cairne, don´t think that Bairne likes Garrosh much 8the Bairn story is reinforcing this), the bloodelves like the Forsaken and would be next on the alliance chopping block. His allies will not follow him if it seems to them that he isn´t considering their interests.

The blood elves have to turn to the Alliance just to survive and well they have bargaining chips on the table to make the deal stick. Varian has no issue with the elves, the Alliance ambassadors and Garithos only had a lack of brain in common and Varian the warmonger has a lot of peaceniks as allies. Yo yeah if we consider it from a political point, getting rid of the Forsaken in an obvious way only results in the complete loss of all Horde holdings in the Eastern Kingdoms, the strengthening of the Alliance and well them havin a secure continent with the Horde fighting with a bunch of crazy night elves in the wood. Elves in their own wood, nuff said.

So these troops aren´t disposable. He would have to send his own troops to fill the void, takes pressure out of the campaign against the night elves and the assault against the human counter attack. The Forsaken will be missing in the future camapaign against the Worgen, so it´s not even sure, that he can take Gilneas fast enough to reinforce the Horde territories formerly manned by the Forsaken army.

And well, he doesn´t know that Sylvanas wanted to end her life. It´s an elaborate form of suicide to piss her off on this level.

And I agree Annhylde was the most heroic character here. Taking eternal torment so her sisters can go free is a very selfless move. Or she was bored so much by standing there, watching Bolvar sleep, that eternal damnation sounded like the better alternative.

It´s a nice plan to get rid of his Forsaken allies, would work if he had done the correct political maneuvers and claculated with the consequences, perhaps. But I don´t think so. He is just a barbarian from backwater Draenor fighting in a war with guys who have more military experience. At least since the third war, some of them a lot longer.

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:19 am
by sahiel
Sabindeus wrote:When you have warriors that you consider disposable and you don't mind throwing their lives away then Garrosh's tactics were just fine. The reason he acceded to her command was that her presence had suddenly removed control of his disposable warriors. I don't think you can conclude from this that he would "lose the war" as you put it.

If he considers the Forsaken army disposable then he is a bad general, the "war" isn't this battle against Gilneas, the war is against the Alliance. If the forsaken army is reduced to nothing who exactly holds the lands they claimed now? Not the Blood Elves, they've shown a strong reluctance to get militarily involved in Horde-Alliance conflicts and kept their actions to against common foes. Send in more orcs? Sure, the Night Elves would welcome less enemies on Kalimdor, splitting your forces to fight wars on 2 fronts always works well.

Garrosh thinks short term, that is his major problem, he has excellent tactical acumen for winning battles, but if you're winning the wrong battles then it matters naught. To win the war he really needs to put someone like Saurfang in charge of the overarching tactical plan and let him organise it, then Garrosh can go to battlefields, be all "Rawr!" and lead the troops to the victories he needs to win.

But he's still a dick.
And Sylvanas rocks :P

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:24 am
by Sagara
Passionario wrote:I'd say that the real hero and utter badass of this story is neither Sylvanas nor Garrosh, but Annhylde.


Quite. We DON'T KNOW whatever happened to her, of any of the Val'kyr that sacrificed themselves. For all we know, they commited suicide for the good of their sisterhood, only to end up in the same Hell we saw.

And, just to play with sabin (all in good fun, okay? ^^), I like to think that Paladins believe themselves human and prone to failure. They have the resolve and courage to face the darkness head-on, but there's no guarantee they'll stay on the straight and narrow.

Think Luke Skywalker - the threat of failing is implicit, and the temptation is there, even if the reasons (overthrow the Empire) might be noble. He's aware of them, and he stumbles from time to time. But in the end, he denies his failings, and that makes him a bigger hero.

That's what I like to think when I'm vaguely "roleplaying" - would I have been any different from Arthas? From Sylvanas? From Kael'Thas? As a Blood Elf, I nearly fell to the Legion, but the naaru caught me back and we clawed our way to another chance. I'm afraid, but as some commander put it: "I won't let fear compromise who I am".

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:12 am
by Amirya
Sagara wrote:I like to think that Paladins believe themselves human

Nitpick:

There are also the dwarves, the draenei, the blood elves, and the tauren. :D

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:18 am
by Dantriges
Her last sentence " I take your place" implies that she is now there where Sylvanas was.

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:47 am
by Sabindeus
Sagara wrote:And, just to play with sabin (all in good fun, okay? ^^), I like to think that Paladins believe themselves human and prone to failure. They have the resolve and courage to face the darkness head-on, but there's no guarantee they'll stay on the straight and narrow.

Think Luke Skywalker - the threat of failing is implicit, and the temptation is there, even if the reasons (overthrow the Empire) might be noble. He's aware of them, and he stumbles from time to time. But in the end, he denies his failings, and that makes him a bigger hero.

That's what I like to think when I'm vaguely "roleplaying" - would I have been any different from Arthas? From Sylvanas? From Kael'Thas? As a Blood Elf, I nearly fell to the Legion, but the naaru caught me back and we clawed our way to another chance. I'm afraid, but as some commander put it: "I won't let fear compromise who I am".


See I don't think anything you said contradicts what I said. The difference is in the attitude. As a Paladin my philosophy would be, If you don't believe with all of your conviction that you CAN face the darkness without faltering, then you will fall to it. There is no room for doubt in a Paladin's resolve. The guarantee is implicit in our pledge to The Light. Arthas failed as a Ruler, as a Paladin, and as a human being. Obviously we can all learn from his failure, but at no point should a true Paladin actually believe he could go down that road himself.

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:11 pm
by Sagara
80 000 paths to the Buddah I guess?

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:42 am
by Levantine
Dantriges wrote:... Bairne... Bairn...

Baine.

Also, Sylvanas rules. Well she did. I still heart her, and this story goes quite the way to making her awesome again.

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:46 am
by Sagara
She's definitly one of the better-characterized NPCs, unlike some. *cough*Lor'themar*cough*

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:34 am
by sahiel
Sagara wrote:She's definitly one of the better-characterized NPCs, unlike some. *cough*Lor'themar*cough*

I really, really wish they'd do more with him. He's a great character, one of the leaders of the Quel'thalas defence in the second war, kept a resistance force fighting the scourge after Sylvanas was killed and the elven defence broken by Arthas in the scourge invasion, saved Anveena and was trusted to protect her and the sunwell, defacto leader of the blood elves during that whole time.

He has a great history and is a very strong character so... why the hell don't they actually use him more! /sadface

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:51 am
by Passionario
After reading/listening through the datamined portions of 5.1 content, I can say this:

- We're all screwed.
- Fuck Garrosh with eight barbed warpikes, sideways.

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:25 am
by Sagara
Passionario wrote:After reading/listening through the datamined portions of 5.1 content, I can say this:

- We're all screwed.
- Fuck Garrosh with eight barbed warpikes, sideways.


Quoted, because YES.

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:33 am
by Flex
Passionario wrote:After reading/listening through the datamined portions of 5.1 content, I can say this:

- We're all screwed.
- Fuck Garrosh with eight barbed warpikes, sideways.


If my passive listening was "on" we have two finales with two different outcomes, I wonder if they're debating which to go with still. I could be wrong and they could be for different events.

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:24 am
by benebarba
seems as good a place as any:

I only play ally side... but was sort of struck by a big WTF moment when, after slaughtering large numbers of horde (some in a less-than-honorable manner), I found myself in Paw'Don village with a contingent of alliance NPCs with some random lvl 85/86 horde players wandering about and not a single NPC seemed to indicate that this was strange, aside from mentions of horde strong-arming supplies out of the locals.

How does this play out for Horde? On PVP servers, did this area actually tend to continue the battle that started at the ally-side landing area? Or did I miss something story-wise?

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:25 am
by KysenMurrin
Shouldn't be Horde players hanging around Paw'don, it's an alliance quest area...

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:26 am
by benebarba
KysenMurrin wrote:Shouldn't be Horde players hanging around Paw'don, it's an alliance quest area...


hmm - I may have to pay more attention when I'm there. I wonder if I was fooled by mounts.

edit: actually, now that I think about it - it may have been a town after Paw'don. Maybe Dawn's Blossom? I just recall suddenly looking around and seeing what I swore was a troll druid wander by, without much todo, not long after I'd been slaughtering horde.

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:47 am
by Flex
Dawn's Blossom is a neutral hub, which is odd as the Horde kidnapped Pandaran children, you'd think the entire race would shun them.

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:53 am
by Sagara
Funny, in the Horde version, the ALLIANCE enslaves Pandaren (even children) under a flimsy pretense to build their fortress.

I'm curious of levelling my Ally toon, to see that...

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:05 pm
by bldavis
Sagara wrote:Funny, in the Horde version, the ALLIANCE enslaves Pandaren (even children) under a flimsy pretense to build their fortress.

I'm curious of levelling my Ally toon, to see that...

the ally side shows nothing but horde being evil and holding the kiddies captive and them befriending the jin-yu
the horde side shows the ally enslaving pandas to build a fortress, and you making the hozen afraid of you, and turning them into allies

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:07 pm
by Flex
bldavis wrote:the ally side shows nothing but horde being evil and holding the kiddies captive and them befriending the jin-yu
the horde side shows the ally enslaving pandas to build a fortress, and you making the hozen afraid of you, and turning them into allies


The wowhead comments on the horde quest cast doubt that they were forcefully being held captive, no restraints being the big one.

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:16 pm
by bldavis
Flex wrote:
bldavis wrote:the ally side shows nothing but horde being evil and holding the kiddies captive and them befriending the jin-yu
the horde side shows the ally enslaving pandas to build a fortress, and you making the hozen afraid of you, and turning them into allies


The wowhead comments on the horde quest cast doubt that they were forcefully being held captive, no restraints being the big one.

all they say when you release them is i am so thirsty, or i want to go home
so it is debatable
the ally side, there is no question they kids are being held under fel magic

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:21 pm
by Sagara
I'll check that out. Well, nothing I'd put beyond *those guys* >_<

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:33 pm
by benebarba
bldavis wrote:the ally side, there is no question they kids are being held under fel magic


Nah, the crazy floating eyes and fel-casters were just really shiny babysitters :P

And woah - we (the alliance) were building a fortress? Here I thought we just got our butts marooned by the Sky Admiral until we found and convinced the prince to go back home. The Jin'Yu I just found to be a 'hey, there be horde here, let's convince the natives to kill'em. Oh, and let's totally disregard the ominous warning delivered after one of our best SI-7 operatives got taken over by some wierd PO'd smoke creature that may have been made of pure evil.'.

Maybe it's me, but I think the fact that the Jade Dragon didn't just eat us after that whole battle thing showed she's probably a better person than my character can ever hope to be :P

Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:51 pm
by KysenMurrin
They kinda justified the Horde-being-evil stuff by having their leader turn out to be totally corrupted by Sha. Guessing something similar will have happened with the Alliance leader.

(The Horde-is-evil stuff is kinda strange coming immediately after Sky Admiral Rogers does her big dick move on the unarmed, surrendering orc sailors.)