Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Passionario » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:29 am

The new faction leader story certainly answers quite a few questions.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:35 am

Yeah, I tought back to this topic when I read it.

I'm sticking to my guns - Sylv' needs to be brought down like the rabid beast she is, pronto. (Altought, I'm feeling a bit bittersweet about the thing)

I'm not as gung-ho about every last Forsaken, but Sylvie'? She's raising people from the dead, and builds a cult of personality to create a personal army of fanatics to escape the jugement from Beyond. If that doesn't sound evil enough...
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Passionario » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:53 am

Of course killing people to postpone your own descent into hell is evil, but at least it's a well-known and understandable evil. That doesn't justify Sylvanas's post-Cataclysm actions, but it goes a long way towards explaining them.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:27 am

Indeed :)

I actually love to hate her - she's the poor little girl that became a monster first to lash out at an unjust world, then to protect herself from just deserts.

This is exactly the type a foe a Paladin would find heartwrenching - there but for a mad prince raising us from the dead go we.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:43 am

I wonder if her final destination had anything to do with her choice of location. She threw herself on a big bunch of Saronite and we know from the quests in the mine that Saronite affects the living. It´s a metal closely tied to an Old God. Dying through a bunch of Saronite spikes could have sent her soul right into the grasp of Yogg.

Or it´s the Dark. The presence of Arthas seems to indicate that it has not much to do with the Old Gods. Still, he died on a big tower made out of it, surrounded by it and well he was there longer than Sylvanas. The other indicator that it´s not the mind of the Old god is that the valkyr were able to get her out. But well, quite alot of people already walked around in his mind during the battle.

You could make a case that Yogg is already slain but if Ragnaros is still alive unless you kill him at home, we can assume that kiling an old God on the mortal plane only snaps the tendrils he has extended into it.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:13 am

I really really loved the Sylvanas story. It did two things to cement my existing opinions:
1. Show what an evil, vain, arrogant, cowardly bitch Sylvanas is.
2. Show how awesome Garrosh is.

two thumbs up
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:13 am

Needs more Vol'jin
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:17 am

Sagara wrote:This is exactly the type a foe a Paladin would find heartwrenching - there but for a mad prince raising us from the dead go we.

/disagree
No real Paladin would go that route.

Look at what happened to Bolvar. He was prevented from dying and subjected to agony we can't even describe while burning from the inside from the dragon's fire. And yet he stuck right to his convictions to the bitter end, sacrificing himself so that others could live free of the scourge threat. That man knows fear. And he refuses to let it win.

As a Paladin, I might take pity upon those who lose to fear, but never would I feel remorse for striking them down.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:17 am

Shoju wrote:Needs more Vol'jin

they already did a vol'jin story...
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:22 am

Every story is better with more Vol'jin, and less Garrosh.

It's kind of like Cowbell and Celine Dion.

Every song is better with more Cowbell, and every song is better with less Celine Dion.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:41 am

yeah well my heart will go on for Garrosh. <3
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:55 am

Garrosh awesome? I am impressed by his rhetorical skills, underwhelmed by his tactical acumen. Its not like Sylvanas presented some genius tactic or wanted to use the cheap answer of chemical warfare.

Go round the wall, take them from behind or at least divert resources instead of assaulting their strong point. That Garrosh guy is good for morale bolstering troops and leading an assault, leave strategy and tactics to the professionals. No wonder, Silverymoon sent advisors to Orgrimmar.

And well, he is not watchin her closely not because of a political sense but because she wounded his pride.

He is just your average barbarian warlord. So he would win the battle, lose the war.

And Sylvanas, well it was cowardly, but I think 99,999% of the whole population would take every way out of eternal torment. So yeah, she is an evil bitch who tries to evade the final consequence. Well, what a surprise.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:57 am

Sabindeus wrote:yeah well my heart will go on for Garrosh. <3


You are a bad man.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:16 am

Dantriges wrote:Garrosh awesome? I am impressed by his rhetorical skills, underwhelmed by his tactical acumen. Its not like Sylvanas presented some genius tactic or wanted to use the cheap answer of chemical warfare.

Go round the wall, take them from behind or at least divert resources instead of assaulting their strong point. That Garrosh guy is good for morale bolstering troops and leading an assault, leave strategy and tactics to the professionals. No wonder, Silverymoon sent advisors to Orgrimmar.

And well, he is not watchin her closely not because of a political sense but because she wounded his pride.

He is just your average barbarian warlord. So he would win the battle, lose the war.

And Sylvanas, well it was cowardly, but I think 99,999% of the whole population would take every way out of eternal torment. So yeah, she is an evil bitch who tries to evade the final consequence. Well, what a surprise.


When you have warriors that you consider disposable and you don't mind throwing their lives away then Garrosh's tactics were just fine. The reason he acceded to her command was that her presence had suddenly removed control of his disposable warriors. I don't think you can conclude from this that he would "lose the war" as you put it.

He is watching her closely because he looked in her eyes and saw the haunted resolve there. He considers her dangerous and a threat, having nothing to do with his pride.

And Sylvanas, well it was cowardly, but I think 99,999% of the whole population would take every way out of eternal torment. So yeah, she is an evil bitch who tries to evade the final consequence. Well, what a surprise.


Well I won't be surprised, but that definitely makes her less of a hero.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Passionario » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:29 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Dantriges wrote:
And Sylvanas, well it was cowardly, but I think 99,999% of the whole population would take every way out of eternal torment. So yeah, she is an evil bitch who tries to evade the final consequence. Well, what a surprise.


Well I won't be surprised, but that definitely makes her less of a hero.


I'd say that the real hero and utter badass of this story is neither Sylvanas nor Garrosh, but Annhylde.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:33 am

Garrosh is definitely a badass regardless of any of the other characters. That having been said, Annhylde was definitely cool. I do love the Vrykul in general. I approved of that particular development.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:49 am

Well losing Lordaeron Central to the Alliance is certainly a setback. OK he can´t know the future, but the outcome of sacrificing the Forsaken army, who is more or less the one in most direct contact with the enemy is pretty obvious. And well it´s not like the Horde is politically stable. If he sacrifices one ally to save his troops, what will the rest think? The trolls are more or less in open defiance, he killed Cairne, don´t think that Bairne likes Garrosh much 8the Bairn story is reinforcing this), the bloodelves like the Forsaken and would be next on the alliance chopping block. His allies will not follow him if it seems to them that he isn´t considering their interests.

The blood elves have to turn to the Alliance just to survive and well they have bargaining chips on the table to make the deal stick. Varian has no issue with the elves, the Alliance ambassadors and Garithos only had a lack of brain in common and Varian the warmonger has a lot of peaceniks as allies. Yo yeah if we consider it from a political point, getting rid of the Forsaken in an obvious way only results in the complete loss of all Horde holdings in the Eastern Kingdoms, the strengthening of the Alliance and well them havin a secure continent with the Horde fighting with a bunch of crazy night elves in the wood. Elves in their own wood, nuff said.

So these troops aren´t disposable. He would have to send his own troops to fill the void, takes pressure out of the campaign against the night elves and the assault against the human counter attack. The Forsaken will be missing in the future camapaign against the Worgen, so it´s not even sure, that he can take Gilneas fast enough to reinforce the Horde territories formerly manned by the Forsaken army.

And well, he doesn´t know that Sylvanas wanted to end her life. It´s an elaborate form of suicide to piss her off on this level.

And I agree Annhylde was the most heroic character here. Taking eternal torment so her sisters can go free is a very selfless move. Or she was bored so much by standing there, watching Bolvar sleep, that eternal damnation sounded like the better alternative.

It´s a nice plan to get rid of his Forsaken allies, would work if he had done the correct political maneuvers and claculated with the consequences, perhaps. But I don´t think so. He is just a barbarian from backwater Draenor fighting in a war with guys who have more military experience. At least since the third war, some of them a lot longer.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby sahiel » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:19 am

Sabindeus wrote:When you have warriors that you consider disposable and you don't mind throwing their lives away then Garrosh's tactics were just fine. The reason he acceded to her command was that her presence had suddenly removed control of his disposable warriors. I don't think you can conclude from this that he would "lose the war" as you put it.

If he considers the Forsaken army disposable then he is a bad general, the "war" isn't this battle against Gilneas, the war is against the Alliance. If the forsaken army is reduced to nothing who exactly holds the lands they claimed now? Not the Blood Elves, they've shown a strong reluctance to get militarily involved in Horde-Alliance conflicts and kept their actions to against common foes. Send in more orcs? Sure, the Night Elves would welcome less enemies on Kalimdor, splitting your forces to fight wars on 2 fronts always works well.

Garrosh thinks short term, that is his major problem, he has excellent tactical acumen for winning battles, but if you're winning the wrong battles then it matters naught. To win the war he really needs to put someone like Saurfang in charge of the overarching tactical plan and let him organise it, then Garrosh can go to battlefields, be all "Rawr!" and lead the troops to the victories he needs to win.

But he's still a dick.
And Sylvanas rocks :P
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:24 am

Passionario wrote:I'd say that the real hero and utter badass of this story is neither Sylvanas nor Garrosh, but Annhylde.


Quite. We DON'T KNOW whatever happened to her, of any of the Val'kyr that sacrificed themselves. For all we know, they commited suicide for the good of their sisterhood, only to end up in the same Hell we saw.

And, just to play with sabin (all in good fun, okay? ^^), I like to think that Paladins believe themselves human and prone to failure. They have the resolve and courage to face the darkness head-on, but there's no guarantee they'll stay on the straight and narrow.

Think Luke Skywalker - the threat of failing is implicit, and the temptation is there, even if the reasons (overthrow the Empire) might be noble. He's aware of them, and he stumbles from time to time. But in the end, he denies his failings, and that makes him a bigger hero.

That's what I like to think when I'm vaguely "roleplaying" - would I have been any different from Arthas? From Sylvanas? From Kael'Thas? As a Blood Elf, I nearly fell to the Legion, but the naaru caught me back and we clawed our way to another chance. I'm afraid, but as some commander put it: "I won't let fear compromise who I am".
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Amirya » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:12 am

Sagara wrote:I like to think that Paladins believe themselves human

Nitpick:

There are also the dwarves, the draenei, the blood elves, and the tauren. :D
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:18 am

Her last sentence " I take your place" implies that she is now there where Sylvanas was.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:47 am

Sagara wrote:And, just to play with sabin (all in good fun, okay? ^^), I like to think that Paladins believe themselves human and prone to failure. They have the resolve and courage to face the darkness head-on, but there's no guarantee they'll stay on the straight and narrow.

Think Luke Skywalker - the threat of failing is implicit, and the temptation is there, even if the reasons (overthrow the Empire) might be noble. He's aware of them, and he stumbles from time to time. But in the end, he denies his failings, and that makes him a bigger hero.

That's what I like to think when I'm vaguely "roleplaying" - would I have been any different from Arthas? From Sylvanas? From Kael'Thas? As a Blood Elf, I nearly fell to the Legion, but the naaru caught me back and we clawed our way to another chance. I'm afraid, but as some commander put it: "I won't let fear compromise who I am".


See I don't think anything you said contradicts what I said. The difference is in the attitude. As a Paladin my philosophy would be, If you don't believe with all of your conviction that you CAN face the darkness without faltering, then you will fall to it. There is no room for doubt in a Paladin's resolve. The guarantee is implicit in our pledge to The Light. Arthas failed as a Ruler, as a Paladin, and as a human being. Obviously we can all learn from his failure, but at no point should a true Paladin actually believe he could go down that road himself.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:11 pm

80 000 paths to the Buddah I guess?
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Worldie wrote:I used to like it [mean] back on Sylvanas.

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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Levantine » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:42 am

Dantriges wrote:... Bairne... Bairn...

Baine.

Also, Sylvanas rules. Well she did. I still heart her, and this story goes quite the way to making her awesome again.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:46 am

She's definitly one of the better-characterized NPCs, unlike some. *cough*Lor'themar*cough*
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